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In this episode of all about business, James Reed sits down with executive coach and Life’s Work founder, Steph Rix. She explains how you can beat imposter syndrome for good, the difference between leadership and management and how you can use your personal values to become a better leader.
00:58 defining leadership: self-awareness and values
08:08 the role of values in leadership
12:27 dealing with self-doubt and imposter syndrome
17:37 overcoming overthinking and taking action
23:31 the importance of transparency in organisational change
28:39 navigating difficult conversations
35:03 supporting employee development on a budget
40:46 identifying and nurturing potential in employees
45:20 final thoughts and reflections
Get coaching for your team: https://www.lifesworkconsulting.com/
Follow Steph on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanierixcoach/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
About Steph
Steph is the Founder and Managing Director of Life’s Work where she provides team, career and leadership coaching for businesses and individuals.
She has a Masters in Career Development and has been an executive coach for almost ten years.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:21
Speaker 1
Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed. The podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, mastermind investment models to build a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
00:00:27:23 - 00:00:57:10
Speaker 1
Delivering the best results means attracting and developing the best talent. But how do you turn your employees into strong leaders, but proud to work for your business? And how can you navigate tough decisions without affecting employer reputation? And joining me today on All About Business is Steph Riggs. Steph is the founder and managing director of Life's Work, where she provides team career and leadership coaching for businesses and individuals.
00:00:57:12 - 00:01:15:00
Speaker 1
Steph has a master's in career development and has been an executive coach for almost ten years now. That's why she's the perfect person to talk to us about spotting and developing powerful leaders across your organisation.
00:01:15:02 - 00:01:17:09
Speaker 1
Steph, thanks so much for joining me today.
00:01:17:10 - 00:01:18:11
Speaker 2
Pleasure to be here.
00:01:18:13 - 00:01:35:16
Speaker 1
Now you are an executive coach and managing director of your own company. Yes, work, which you started almost a decade ago. Part of your work since then is turning workers into leaders. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What does that involve?
00:01:35:16 - 00:01:58:13
Speaker 2
Typically I think well, is I mean, you could look at a dictionary definition, couldn't you? Of what? What makes a great leader. And I think it's not just about leading people. It's also about leading yourself. So I always whenever we start any leadership development program, we start with how do you actually lead yourself? And I mean, like, you know, how self-aware are you?
00:01:58:17 - 00:02:23:03
Speaker 2
How how resilient are you? How well do you know your strengths, your values, what you thought you talked about? Brand me. What do you stand for? So I think that that's that's definitely the the first part of it. And then it's about in leadership. How are you then. Because we talk about the difference leadership versus management. And we'll say, you know, managers lead, will lead tasks lead as lead people.
00:02:23:03 - 00:02:44:05
Speaker 2
And so it'll be around. How are you motivating and inspiring your team? How are you coaching them? How do you handle difficult conversations? How strategic are you thinking? How long term are you thinking? And short term. But that all with the the the main focus of it's about people rather than things.
00:02:44:07 - 00:02:59:20
Speaker 1
Some people think that leaders are sort of born not made. You know, they emerge from the womb with this sort of charisma or sort of followership or something. Is there anything, any truth in that. Do you believe that? No you don't.
00:02:59:20 - 00:03:01:18
Speaker 2
No. I think that's.
00:03:01:23 - 00:03:04:23
Speaker 1
Why it's so persistently in our culture that people then leave.
00:03:05:00 - 00:03:30:16
Speaker 2
I think there are certain traits that some people have, and maybe in the past, you know, they'll be traditional, you know, quite direct presence, command, like this kind of style that people then say they're a natural leader. So I never thought of myself as a leader because I didn't fit that mould. So I was, you know, in an organisation, people always said to me, oh, Steph, you know, you lack a bit of confidence that, you know, these kind of things.
00:03:30:20 - 00:03:36:17
Speaker 2
Really unhelpful to say that to someone when, when they lack confidence is probably the worst thing you can say.
00:03:36:19 - 00:03:40:10
Speaker 1
And what should you say to someone? I as a leader.
00:03:40:14 - 00:04:03:21
Speaker 2
Well, if I if I notice one of my team are lacking in confidence in something, I wouldn't say, oh, you need to have confidence. I find out what it is that gives them confidence, I would say, or if I notice where they are, confidence. Say, I really liked how you delivered that part of the presentation, or I noticed you were really in flow and you I'd pick out things where they are showing their confidence.
00:04:04:01 - 00:04:21:12
Speaker 2
And I'd also ask, what helps you to feel more confident rather than kind of stating something like that, but, but I'd so I never thought of myself as a leader. I says I'm a great follower, I'm not a leader, and now I am a leader. But you can learn that. You can. You can work at it. There are things.
00:04:21:14 - 00:04:48:02
Speaker 2
There are skills. I mean, there's countless resources, both paid for and free, that you can access. And for me, being a leader is about having an approach and an attitude of continuous learning. Like, I'm constantly learning. I get things wrong all the time. I am constantly learning how, you know, whether it's through books, podcasts, just meeting people, speaking to people in my network who inspire me.
00:04:48:06 - 00:04:50:20
Speaker 2
I think it's an approach and an attitude.
00:04:50:22 - 00:04:55:04
Speaker 1
So there are different types of leadership, and so yours is a sort of open minded style.
00:04:55:05 - 00:05:16:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. My I mean, everyone has their own individual style. I wouldn't say any style is wrong or right. It's about leveraging your own strengths in that style. I'm quite by, as you say, open minded lead. People probably say I'm quite nurturing. Connection is one of my values. So I believe in connecting people together. And I also need to sometimes be direct and challenging there.
00:05:16:05 - 00:05:24:05
Speaker 2
The bits that don't come as naturally to me and I've had to work at those. Now other people, maybe James might have that. As more of your natural style.
00:05:24:07 - 00:05:25:15
Speaker 1
You may.
00:05:25:17 - 00:05:31:18
Speaker 2
But then you might have had. So, you know, there'll be other elements of leadership, but you think I've had to work at those. It's different for everyone.
00:05:31:20 - 00:05:52:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would agree with that. So when you talk about leading oneself in a sense, then we all have to be leaders. Yeah. So everyone is and says, yeah, we all have to lead our selves. Yeah. Dawn until dusk or whatever. And through the day and as effectively as we can. So it's a skill that we all need to learn.
00:05:52:10 - 00:06:04:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then assuming we can lead ourselves to a degree, then we can start potentially being a leader in other ways. Yeah, yeah. So what you would say?
00:06:04:05 - 00:06:05:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I think whether.
00:06:05:13 - 00:06:07:01
Speaker 1
Whether one has that capacity to be.
00:06:07:01 - 00:06:09:17
Speaker 2
One has whether people want to. So I think.
00:06:09:17 - 00:06:11:14
Speaker 1
When they have that ambition or desires and.
00:06:11:16 - 00:06:33:11
Speaker 2
That's okay. There are some people in, in organisations that don't want to lead other people. And then they're pushed into that as a direction when they don't actually want to. They're quite happy. You know, Mark being maybe a function area expert, for example, that there'll always be self leadership elements involved in that, but they may not want to develop other people.
00:06:33:11 - 00:06:35:06
Speaker 2
And that's that's okay.
00:06:35:08 - 00:06:46:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, sure. Okay. On the on the sort of nature of leadership you talk about values, leadership. Can you tell me what that's about? What do you mean?
00:06:46:04 - 00:07:12:04
Speaker 2
I'm a very values driven person, so I don't talk about values. I mean, I don't mean words on a website as such. I'm talking about, statements, principles, guiding compass, all methods. Probably the best way of describing values. And for me, I find that if you can make decisions based around your values, I. It makes life a lot easier.
00:07:12:06 - 00:07:39:18
Speaker 2
And it's just really authentic because it just you think purpose is why we do something isn't it? And then you might have as an entrepreneur, a business owner, you'll have goals, vision, ambition, for example. But the values tell you then how. Because we could, we could take our careers or businesses in so many different directions. However, how do you know what is the right direction to go in?
00:07:39:18 - 00:07:58:15
Speaker 2
And that's where values can really help you make decisions. So just to give you an example of that, to bring it to life. When I set up the business, I could have been Stephanie Rick's coaching, for example, but I always had this vision that I wanted it to be more of a team. I wanted to have other people working with me.
00:07:58:17 - 00:08:23:05
Speaker 2
I wanted it to grow into something, which is why I then thought, I'm I'm not just going to go down the freelance type route. I'm going to go for the more business type route, because connection as a, as a core value is really important to me. So I made that decision based on values, connecting people, having, we, we cover teams, team development, leadership development and career development.
00:08:23:05 - 00:08:29:22
Speaker 2
And it's about how those three things connect, again, that fits with, with with our values. I mean.
00:08:30:01 - 00:08:32:22
Speaker 1
We had with Team-mates on this side of that is.
00:08:32:22 - 00:08:36:06
Speaker 2
Obviously going to influence the, the organisation.
00:08:36:06 - 00:08:37:06
Speaker 1
The culture. Yes.
00:08:37:06 - 00:08:37:21
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:08:37:23 - 00:08:59:16
Speaker 1
We're delighted that you're listening to this episode. Hit the follow button. So that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. So it sounds to me that you were very intentional about identifying what your personal values are. Is it a long list or a short list or just connection?
00:08:59:16 - 00:08:59:24
Speaker 1
No, I mean.
00:09:00:05 - 00:09:09:07
Speaker 2
I think most people tend to have around 4 or 5 when I've done. We do and we've got our course, haven't we, where you can identify your values and most people tend to have around.
00:09:09:09 - 00:09:15:05
Speaker 1
You have a workshop on that because their life's work is of course, it's really good stuff that,
00:09:15:07 - 00:09:27:05
Speaker 2
We've got, most people have 4 or 5 core values. And so I, connection is really important to me. Creativity, courage and contribution, you know, making a difference. So I.
00:09:27:05 - 00:09:29:08
Speaker 1
Always think you start with C.
00:09:29:10 - 00:09:31:04
Speaker 2
That's my marketing background, James.
00:09:31:05 - 00:09:33:08
Speaker 1
That helps. Remember. And so yes.
00:09:33:10 - 00:09:46:20
Speaker 2
The force that forces. And with that and then but I think it's really important that you intentional about the behaviours that match the values. Because either you have open honest take accountability or part of.
00:09:46:20 - 00:09:59:20
Speaker 1
Your well the values that's of our family values that we're fair, open, honest. That's one that's a lot of ways. And one we take ownership and we work together. Yes. That's and and that's easy to remember. And they do really inform how we go about things.
00:09:59:22 - 00:10:15:18
Speaker 2
I think it's good to almost measure how, your behaviours aligning with the values. So people that are working for you, for example, how much are they embodying those values in every single behaviour? I mean, we don't always get it right. And we have.
00:10:15:19 - 00:10:20:00
Speaker 1
But not only that, not only them, but me as well as my being fair or exactly.
00:10:20:00 - 00:10:35:16
Speaker 2
It's almost like a I use them as a bit of a checklist sometimes for myself. I have them on a post-it on my laptop, and if I'm making a decision on, you know, do we want to work with this client? Does it fit with our values? We want to take on this piece of work. How am I going to develop the team?
00:10:35:16 - 00:10:51:16
Speaker 2
What am I going to do? I do think of it in terms of maybe that makes me a bit strange. I don't know, but I do think of it in terms of does this match my values? What are the behaviours that I'm showing that match my values? Am I living those behaviours as a bit of how can I live them more?
00:10:51:18 - 00:10:55:15
Speaker 2
How can I be more courageous in what I'm doing? That's one of our values.
00:10:55:17 - 00:11:01:00
Speaker 1
So how do you help your clients deal with that voice of self-doubt, which we all have?
00:11:01:01 - 00:11:25:01
Speaker 2
Yes, everybody has it. That's the first thing to know. So quite often clients feel reassured when I when I obviously I don't share confidential things and I share, yeah. When I'm working with other people and how people who they would never think of have self-doubt do do have some that everybody has it. I think that's an exercise is you can do which we've got on we've got on our course again, the only.
00:11:25:01 - 00:11:31:05
Speaker 1
Degree of self-doubt, it's not a bad thing. Yeah. I mean, it's quite good to be sort of thoughtful, and learn.
00:11:31:08 - 00:11:52:01
Speaker 2
I think it's about embracing self-doubt, not trying to shut down the voice. Because you can't turn that voice off if you are somebody who has a strong inner critic or doubts and selves, and actually it can serve you quite well because it makes you constantly want to be better. And that's really what the inner critic or the self-doubt voice it gives you that I want to be better.
00:11:52:01 - 00:12:13:13
Speaker 2
I want to learn something. So I tend to embrace it, but then balance it out and then say, If I'm doing a thing, I'm saying, what if it all goes wrong? What if I never, manage to grow the business? I have all these negative what's going on? I'll then balance it out by saying the positive, sort of inversion of that.
00:12:13:13 - 00:12:33:01
Speaker 2
So, like, what if it what if it all does work out? What if I can grow the business to meet the target that I've set? What if we do some amazing work with a great team and just doing that little like, I mean, there's countless exercises that you can do. But again, it's about being more intentional about working through that voice.
00:12:33:02 - 00:12:34:02
Speaker 1
But just inverting it.
00:12:34:04 - 00:12:54:18
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. And and I think it's about also reflecting back on your past achievements and things that you never thought you'd be able to do and, and how you've overcome them. So doing a journey mapping exercise of what you have achieved can be, can be really helpful for people with confidence as well.
00:12:54:20 - 00:13:02:18
Speaker 1
So the things I hear about a lot are imposter syndrome. Yeah. So in metres. And the other one is overthinking. Yeah. Do you come across those a lot.
00:13:02:19 - 00:13:03:19
Speaker 2
All the time.
00:13:03:20 - 00:13:06:08
Speaker 1
So yeah a bit of advice on each.
00:13:06:10 - 00:13:15:24
Speaker 2
Well I don't like the term imposter syndrome because it makes it sound like a medical illness ALS, which it's not, because it's it's imposter phenomenon.
00:13:16:03 - 00:13:17:03
Speaker 1
Well, it.
00:13:17:05 - 00:13:43:14
Speaker 2
You meant imposter phenomenon. That's actually quite difficult to say. So I say, says I imposter voice. Right. So I, I often say these things on Facebook or LinkedIn saying, we will help you get rid of the imposter syndrome. You'll be rid of it for ever. And I'm like, really? I don't believe that. And so I actually go a bit of the opposite approach and think, actually, why don't we just embrace that voice, and actually be a bit more playful with it?
00:13:43:14 - 00:13:52:14
Speaker 2
So when and some people give the imposter voice a name. So, this might be a that's good advice. Spaces of mine's called Steve.
00:13:52:20 - 00:13:56:02
Speaker 1
I don't know what I would call liberal justice ideas.
00:13:56:04 - 00:14:00:02
Speaker 2
So I so Steve is very, impulsive.
00:14:00:02 - 00:14:01:13
Speaker 1
Steve is like a loser.
00:14:01:14 - 00:14:22:17
Speaker 2
I saves really hard. Steve's very critical. And he will be. And then I have more and then I then. So when I hear Steve going with, you know, how have you, how are you actually set on this? You know, just speaking to James, we do, you know, whatever Steve might be saying, I will. Then Mo is then my, kind of voice of inner mentor voice.
00:14:22:17 - 00:14:23:22
Speaker 1
Oh, so you've got quite a few. So.
00:14:23:22 - 00:14:25:05
Speaker 2
Yes, I say so.
00:14:25:08 - 00:14:30:05
Speaker 1
I want to hear what Steve says. Steve challenge and Steve. Yeah.
00:14:30:07 - 00:14:42:08
Speaker 2
I will say, you know, you deserve to be here. Look at what you've achieved. You, you know, you're on a journey or whatever, whatever kind in a mental voice would say to you.
00:14:42:14 - 00:14:44:22
Speaker 1
So you have a referee, is that you?
00:14:44:24 - 00:14:48:16
Speaker 2
And then and then you balance those out, and then.
00:14:48:18 - 00:14:55:00
Speaker 1
You. It's just like, I love the idea of having these personalities. Yeah. I thought I I'm drop carry on. Yeah, yeah.
00:14:55:00 - 00:15:10:19
Speaker 2
So there's so I said that that's one title and then just so, so it's about embracing it really being a bit playful with that imposter voice rather than just trying to shut it out. And I think it's okay to have self-doubt, a bit of imposter syndrome, as we call it.
00:15:10:20 - 00:15:13:03
Speaker 1
It's almost becoming fun in the way.
00:15:13:05 - 00:15:35:04
Speaker 2
And that it but it's about not letting that prevent you from taking action. I'm a big action taker, so I have loads. I have self-doubt all the time, but I think I have a strong enough sense of belief in myself. But I have the outside a lot of like self-doubt going on at the same time, and I just try not to let that prevent me from taking action.
00:15:35:04 - 00:15:44:17
Speaker 2
Because actually, by the process of taking action, I it helps to get rid of the self. I think there's a, there's a quote, isn't there? Inaction is the biggest breeder of self-doubt.
00:15:44:19 - 00:15:45:12
Speaker 1
Right.
00:15:45:14 - 00:15:56:07
Speaker 2
And so that so when I'm working with clients, helping them I helping them. So small step actions. Just if you feel like you have control over something can help with that self-doubt.
00:15:56:08 - 00:16:01:15
Speaker 1
So then that leads into the sort of overthinking which is probably related to inaction.
00:16:01:18 - 00:16:02:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:02:19 - 00:16:08:09
Speaker 1
So sometimes you get into analysis is like that. Talk me through that. And how we how do you deal with that?
00:16:08:10 - 00:16:23:07
Speaker 2
Well, so quite often I mean, this happens a lot with the people I'm work with, particularly on a 1 to 1 level. And the reason why they want to work with me is because I help them organise their thoughts. And so people will overthink.
00:16:23:07 - 00:16:26:01
Speaker 1
What does it mean over overthinking over to work. We hear a lot of. Right.
00:16:26:02 - 00:16:46:11
Speaker 2
Well, I think overthinking is where you have an inability to take action because you're constantly in your head weighing up all the different possibilities, the what ifs, the risks of doing something. Certain people have a tendency to do that more than others. So you have some people who are not overthink because they just get on and do it.
00:16:46:13 - 00:16:47:10
Speaker 2
Other people can be.
00:16:47:10 - 00:16:48:00
Speaker 1
Bad, too.
00:16:48:00 - 00:16:51:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. So there's this first person, a little bit of thinking.
00:16:51:20 - 00:16:54:16
Speaker 1
It's probably a good idea. Yeah. So it's,
00:16:54:18 - 00:17:20:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, a little bit of thinking is probably useful, but there's, there's that with overthinking. I would define it as overthinking that prevents you from taking some kind of action. Next step. And getting stuck. Getting real stuck and not being able to see the wood for the trees. And and that's and quite often my clients will describe me as a thinking partner.
00:17:20:03 - 00:17:41:23
Speaker 2
I've had that. I've had people have used that phrase, about me before. So I will will work together, will think something through together, by me asking questions, getting them to reflect, see it from a different perspective. And then we'll think about, okay, well, what options do you actually have with with this, with this challenge, this issue. And then we'll then work towards okay.
00:17:41:23 - 00:17:58:13
Speaker 2
Well what steps are you actually going to take? I think when you've got some steps or actions to take based on that problem, it can be the smallest thing. It doesn't need to be a huge action. It's just a small first step that can help you get out of that overthinking cycle.
00:17:58:17 - 00:18:18:02
Speaker 1
So the other big theme that you deal with, I understand, is change. And change is all around us. Change is accelerating and ever present and kind of often we don't like it very much. Do you? Yes. Well, it might be nice to go somewhere different for our holidays, but change in the workplace can be quite so. Yeah, this if you're.
00:18:18:02 - 00:18:19:09
Speaker 2
Not driving at yourself.
00:18:19:09 - 00:18:26:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. We're you know that's being sort of moved around. Yeah. Especially if you're not driving it yourself. So how do you help people with that?
00:18:26:08 - 00:18:28:24
Speaker 2
You mean organisations or do you mean individually?
00:18:28:24 - 00:18:36:21
Speaker 1
I mean, I suppose I was thinking individual. So you were if you were coaching or supporting a team that's going through the. Yeah, transformational change. It's in there.
00:18:36:23 - 00:18:58:24
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well I, I think yeah I think one of the problems is, is that when companies are going through a lot of change, it might be like a restructure, it might be a new system being whatever it is that sometimes they forget that how it actually affects people because the companies are just, you know, teams of people, after all.
00:18:59:01 - 00:19:11:22
Speaker 2
And as individuals, as humans, our brains are not really wired for change. We have a tendency to not like, change. Some people love it, but as a whole, we don't really like change.
00:19:11:24 - 00:19:13:14
Speaker 1
So there a lot of change. I mean, it.
00:19:13:14 - 00:19:36:13
Speaker 2
Comes from like neuroscience, from, there's a whole I won't go into all the background, but it does come from, as of neuroscience perspective, of if you were to step out of the cave, others change when then you would be eaten by a sabre tooth. Tiger. And our way our brains have developed is our brains. Primary function is to keep us safe.
00:19:36:15 - 00:20:00:20
Speaker 2
And change poses a risk of, so the social risk being almost cheated out of the tripartite type thing. And so our brains are wired to not like change. Are we? What? We want to feel like we belong. We want to feel secure. And so whenever we're going through change certain like in an organisation, people will feel that to a different extent depending on the individual.
00:20:00:22 - 00:20:03:05
Speaker 1
This is an ancient fear you're talking about. Yeah.
00:20:03:09 - 00:20:29:22
Speaker 2
It's it's part of the way that we're wired. That's what it comes from. And what so what we do is just try and focussed, leaders and teams on the more human side of this. So and I've seen it done really well in organisations. So whatever is happening, whether it's a restructure, a transformation, whatever words, the company calls it, if you take time to just help people, you might you may have heard of the change curve as well.
00:20:29:22 - 00:20:31:22
Speaker 2
The Kubler-Ross change curve, which is.
00:20:31:22 - 00:20:32:13
Speaker 1
Often is.
00:20:32:14 - 00:21:01:20
Speaker 2
It it's it was taken from the five stages of grief. So denial, anger, acceptance, exploration, commitment. And and it's been, there's various different versions of it, but it comes from the Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, grief cycle. And it's used in leadership development quite a lot. But, but the point the helpful thing about that curve is, is the fact that it makes you think that people are at different stages within within that curve.
00:21:02:00 - 00:21:20:18
Speaker 2
So you'll have some people who will embrace a change really quickly, and you'll have other people that will take time to that. And still it's still in the anger stage and in the denial side. So I think it's about so companies where I see do this well, leaders that do this. Well, listen really well to the team.
00:21:20:18 - 00:21:43:07
Speaker 2
They'll make space, make time that that costs nothing, doesn't it? Just listening to people. It sounds so obvious. I know what I'm saying. It sounds really obvious, but I. You'd be surprised at how many organisations I see that don't do this when there's a change happening. And it's it's about making that time for people to air their views, being really clear and honest.
00:21:43:07 - 00:22:04:24
Speaker 2
I think transparency is absolutely critical when you're going through a change in a, in an organisation. And even if you can't say all the detail, but just being honest about that. So I can't share this with you now because we're still working on it. However, by this date, we will share it. And then you've got to make sure that on the date that you said you were going to share something, you keep to that date.
00:22:04:24 - 00:22:37:07
Speaker 2
Even if you can't then share everything else, you still have to do an update on. You can't let that date past. So it's about that commitment. Transparency, and constant can be constant over community can never communicate enough with with these kind of things. So I think that's from a and we meet actually just this week with one of our teams gone in working with leaders to help them to help their teams work through the change curve, taking practical examples, working through potential ways they can develop their team, take their teams through the change curve.
00:22:37:07 - 00:23:00:05
Speaker 2
So it's happening a lot at the moment. And it's similar for individuals. So quite often individuals will come to us because they want to make a change. I mean, I'm a great believer in anything is possible. I think I've come from a family who, who always inspired me from doing things for my mum, who became, a GP.
00:23:00:05 - 00:23:32:22
Speaker 2
Immigrant families, Greek Cypriot, women, a woman in the early 70s. Not many female doctors around that time with a foreign name. And she was like, I want to be a doctor. And that's what she did. She had to redo her A-levels a few times to achieve it. And then my dad change careers numerous times, from a tube driver to, washing dishes in a tea shop to then becoming a sports agent and bringing football players to this country, and then becoming a lawyer.
00:23:32:23 - 00:23:46:04
Speaker 2
And my brother as well, did he he was doing a geo physics PhD. He dropped all of that to become an actor in a comedian. So I think I've always been inspired by people changing their lives.
00:23:46:06 - 00:23:47:21
Speaker 1
And so I.
00:23:47:22 - 00:23:51:23
Speaker 2
So I believe I've seen it and I see it with my clients as well. You know, I was.
00:23:52:00 - 00:23:52:12
Speaker 1
One.
00:23:52:12 - 00:24:08:22
Speaker 2
One, I remember one person I was working with, she was an MBA students. She was a singer, jazz singer in hotels. She's now a, was senior consultant for a big consultancy firm. So I see that all the time.
00:24:08:24 - 00:24:09:14
Speaker 1
The singer case.
00:24:09:20 - 00:24:10:17
Speaker 2
She does still sing.
00:24:10:17 - 00:24:14:02
Speaker 1
Like that. And that's a useful skill. I it was really.
00:24:14:04 - 00:24:39:12
Speaker 2
I just find it fascinating and and rewarding seeing people go through that. And it's it's not an overnight thing. There's it's a stepping stone approach. I think with all change, whether it's in an organisation or whether it's your own career, it's about taking it step by step. And actually that's where coaching can be really helpful, is helping you to see what those steps are and helping you all the way through that journey.
00:24:39:12 - 00:24:58:17
Speaker 1
So what about businesses when they mess up change, you know, what can we learn from that? Or how would you advise companies, you know, because we don't get it right all the time. Doing things go wrong. People lose their jobs. Yeah, yeah, it hits the fan. Yeah. So we've had you sort of embrace.
00:24:58:23 - 00:25:12:11
Speaker 2
But firstly vulnerability to actually acknowledge that is really key. Now some people would find that all. But is that, you know, we need to show that we're strong and we need to show that we knew what we were doing. So I think actually, if you can.
00:25:12:12 - 00:25:14:22
Speaker 1
You think that's wrong to be strong, I.
00:25:14:22 - 00:25:19:05
Speaker 2
Think you need to be strong, but you can be strong and vulnerable. It's not an either or.
00:25:19:06 - 00:25:20:23
Speaker 1
Okay. That's interesting. So how do you do that.
00:25:20:23 - 00:25:42:04
Speaker 2
So you are honest about the mistakes that that you've made. So you and I've seen people do this really well I say look, you know we got this wrong okay? We acknowledge we got this wrong. This is what we learnt from it. I don't mean carry on saying we got this wrong and then not say anything else. I mean, you've got it is important to say we got this wrong.
00:25:42:05 - 00:26:03:24
Speaker 2
This is what we've learned and share that with, with, with people like, this is what we've learned. We're now and then we're going to we need your views. And actually making that more of a co-creation of a path rather than the just the senior leadership team coming up with all the idea is actually you make that more of a dialogue and saying, let's hear your views.
00:26:03:24 - 00:26:14:22
Speaker 2
How can we change this? And then co-creating something together to come up with a way of, of then working through the, the, whatever has hit the fan. It's a, it's a, it's a get through it.
00:26:14:24 - 00:26:17:23
Speaker 1
And you've seen that good example. I've seen this bad example, I've.
00:26:17:23 - 00:26:25:06
Speaker 2
Seen bad examples. Yeah. I'm being careful. I can see the, the companies and the I'm not going to say, you know, I've seen.
00:26:25:10 - 00:26:28:17
Speaker 1
How do they play out. How does it play out. And it goes wrong. And when.
00:26:28:19 - 00:26:33:03
Speaker 2
People leave. Yeah. That you have like mass exodus of.
00:26:33:07 - 00:26:35:16
Speaker 1
And a little bit of damage to your employer brand. Yeah.
00:26:35:16 - 00:26:46:17
Speaker 2
Employer brand. People leave the company results, commercial, results go down, as well. So there's all all of those, all of those things.
00:26:46:22 - 00:27:02:14
Speaker 1
So this difficult conversation I love this. Yeah. How to have a difficult conversation. Well, what sort of advice would you give someone who has to give someone some difficult feedback. How do you go about that or what? What so should we approach that.
00:27:02:16 - 00:27:05:10
Speaker 2
So there's different types of difficult conversations.
00:27:05:16 - 00:27:06:07
Speaker 1
Going through those.
00:27:06:07 - 00:27:13:00
Speaker 2
So if you're talking about giving difficult difficult if it's about constructive feedback,
00:27:13:02 - 00:27:27:06
Speaker 1
So you have a colleague who has body odour. Okay. I know this is a real problem. How do you surface that subject in a way that I say is this is this I mean, it's not an unusual situation. I mean, I've yeah.
00:27:27:06 - 00:27:30:12
Speaker 2
No, I actually I've, I have had someone who's, who's gone through this.
00:27:30:12 - 00:27:31:23
Speaker 1
So what was it, what was it.
00:27:31:23 - 00:27:36:13
Speaker 2
So they and and it happens more often than not.
00:27:36:15 - 00:27:37:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. It happens a lot. It happens.
00:27:38:01 - 00:28:00:12
Speaker 2
And I think, well, obviously in this particular case, like you talk about sensitivity obviously. So so you would take someone to, to one side. I think you have to be honest, I don't think you can sugarcoat it. And a lot of people, when they're giving typical feedback, whether it's about body odour or performance, whatever it might be, we'll do what we call, I don't know if I can say this on the podcast, but.
00:28:00:15 - 00:28:01:17
Speaker 1
So so that's.
00:28:01:19 - 00:28:03:04
Speaker 2
The shit sandwich.
00:28:03:06 - 00:28:07:07
Speaker 1
What's up now? Talk us through it. I know this is all focus on free speech.
00:28:07:09 - 00:28:10:11
Speaker 2
The, So where you say something nice at the beginning?
00:28:10:11 - 00:28:10:18
Speaker 1
Oh, I.
00:28:10:22 - 00:28:45:22
Speaker 2
I then you kind of then kind of do the shitty part in the middle and then you kind of try and make up for it by saying something nice. It nice at the end. Personally, I don't like that approach because it's you're then just trying to hide the bit in the, in the, in the middle. And I think it's just better to be really to, to be to be upfront and honest and say, look, you know, we've we've had some feedback on this, this is an if it's, there's the classic if it's performance related, there's the classic standard behaviour impact.
00:28:45:24 - 00:29:07:13
Speaker 2
This is a standard we expect the behaviour you are showing is this the impact of that behaviour is XYZ is that it's quite a nice framework for doing that. You could probably even apply that to the body odour example, you know. Yeah. We have an expectation on that. So you know everyone feels that you know we where as an officer it's not going to disrupt other people.
00:29:07:13 - 00:29:29:17
Speaker 2
It's not going to put people off. You know, these are certain hygiene standards that we have in the office. We know you know, we've had some feedback, that, you know, there's we've got some odour coming at you. And the impact of that on people is it's making people feel really queasy in the. I mean, I'm kind of joking, a bit of it using the example, but I think it's about.
00:29:29:21 - 00:29:37:12
Speaker 2
So obviously you're going to be sensitive. You can you can not do that in a public, forum. Obviously you're going to take someone's one side.
00:29:37:14 - 00:29:41:22
Speaker 1
In my experience, a difficult conversation. I think it's it's good to get to the point. Right. Yeah.
00:29:41:22 - 00:29:42:22
Speaker 2
And there's this different.
00:29:42:23 - 00:29:47:01
Speaker 1
So how are you. And unless we can and then XYZ. Yeah.
00:29:47:03 - 00:30:02:04
Speaker 2
You said you'd say, you know, look, I've got something that I need to talk to you about. It's, you know, quite sensitive or, you know, so you just I think it's about being honest and there's different the other types of difficult conversations is where, you know, you're not getting on with a colleague or they've done something that's upset.
00:30:02:04 - 00:30:07:13
Speaker 2
We I have a lot of people talk to me about those kind of things, or they need to addresses an issue with,
00:30:07:15 - 00:30:07:23
Speaker 1
How do you.
00:30:08:02 - 00:30:08:17
Speaker 2
Manage that?
00:30:08:17 - 00:30:12:02
Speaker 1
Pay is I think it's with a superior. Yeah. It's difficult.
00:30:12:03 - 00:30:36:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, there's, there's a really good book, actually. Crucial conversations. It's got. I can't remember the name of the authors because it's about three different authors, but there's a there's a framework in that, and it always starts with understanding the other person's perspective first. So our tendency to go into a difficult conversation when it's something like that will be to offload and say, look, I'm really unhappy about, this, you've done this or whatever.
00:30:36:15 - 00:30:41:21
Speaker 2
If it's a, if it's one of your if it's your manager's senior stakeholder, you might not. That's what I.
00:30:41:21 - 00:30:45:10
Speaker 1
Mean by no one's superior than the other by the senior. And yes.
00:30:45:12 - 00:31:05:13
Speaker 2
You might find it more difficult to put it in in that way, but you still need to say something. And actually, the best starting point is, is to, is to actually, say, look, I've got something to talk to you about, you know, but actually ask them what's going on for them first. So you see it from, from their perspective.
00:31:05:18 - 00:31:28:12
Speaker 2
So, I once had someone who was really struggling, actually with, with their, with their CEO, actually, and he, being careful not to use names and companies as I'm flying through the example and he went to the CEO and said, look like to talk to you about this. But approach it from a how can we work better together?
00:31:28:12 - 00:31:48:13
Speaker 2
So it's not like this is about me or this is about you. It's about that connection between us. And the starting point is that, you know, I've noticed. So you might might notice that I noticed you seemed really angry in that meeting. So you notice a specific behaviour. So you might start with that. And then you say, you know what I want for us.
00:31:48:13 - 00:32:13:20
Speaker 2
And you think about what you want for the relationship. What I want for it is to be able to work really well together and show a united front. Well, and then you ask them to start, what's your view on this? And interestingly, in that conversation when he went to the CEO, the CEO then got really, upset and all of this stuff came out, that was good stuff was going on for their CEO that he had no idea about.
00:32:13:20 - 00:32:38:22
Speaker 2
Absolutely no idea. Stress, or all sorts of posts and personal things and some professional pressures as well. And that just massively cleared the air. He didn't then get to put that put forward all the points as to why he was then. But but it just cleared the air. So just by pausing and approaching it in a collaborative type way, how can we work better together?
00:32:38:22 - 00:33:02:00
Speaker 2
And then giving the other person time to just listen, put yourself in their perspective. It just helped to clear the air. Things are a lot better in their relationship relationship now. And interestingly, now he he doesn't find those kind of conversations difficult anymore. Now he's a lot better at sort of going and saying, look, hey, this is what I need.
00:33:02:02 - 00:33:08:18
Speaker 2
You know, when, you know, we need to improve this together. Yeah. He finds it a lot easier now because that kind of broke the ice.
00:33:08:20 - 00:33:20:20
Speaker 1
So a lot of business leaders have sort of scarce resources. Times are quite tough. What would you say to them if they're thinking of scaling back this type of support?
00:33:20:22 - 00:33:23:07
Speaker 2
The you mean people development support?
00:33:23:08 - 00:33:25:06
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:33:25:08 - 00:33:31:00
Speaker 2
That's it's tricky. So obviously I would think it's a bad I, it's a bad idea.
00:33:31:02 - 00:33:32:15
Speaker 1
Well scaling back people development.
00:33:32:16 - 00:33:54:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because it's, it's short. It's short term thinking and it can have long term adverse effects. In fact, there's actually been quite a lot of reports. So Deloitte, McKinsey, Gallup have all done a quite a lot of research on this, on where, where you invest in performance and people, you tend to get companies that are, more profitable.
00:33:54:09 - 00:34:14:23
Speaker 2
So you can't drive commercial success through the people. And so there's always a big risk if you then think, well, budgets are scarce, we need to then cut a leadership development program, for example. And but then obviously, you can, you know, you might just not have the cash flow to, to be able to you might want to do it, but you just don't have the resources.
00:34:15:00 - 00:34:45:00
Speaker 2
And so I think I think you have to then be really creative about how you have to keep people development going in some shape or form. You may not have a huge budget to do, you know, 500 K big leadership development program, for example. But then it's about equipping your leaders to be able to have great career conversations, for example, with the team that that cost not like so time, you know, it's just about having some great questions that you can ask.
00:34:45:01 - 00:35:07:12
Speaker 2
But how are you measuring that? How you governing the fact that your leaders are speaking to their, team members about their development? So there's there's you can always do something is is my view. I think it's very risky to cut all people development. You don't have to. I mean, when we're working with clients or all the time, we'll have organisations get budgets cut all the time.
00:35:07:14 - 00:35:32:07
Speaker 2
I would say, actually. So if we've now only got a budget of this, what can you do for that? Will always come up with a creative way of trying to do the best we can with what resources you have available, and there's a lot of free resources around as well. I mean, there's that. So I think it's about being very intentional and keeping the focus on people development, regardless of how much money you have to be able to do so.
00:35:32:07 - 00:35:33:13
Speaker 1
Sustained interest.
00:35:33:13 - 00:35:34:08
Speaker 2
Absolutely.
00:35:34:09 - 00:35:35:15
Speaker 1
The people in the organisation.
00:35:35:15 - 00:35:53:22
Speaker 2
It's about thinking about people. It's about really acknowledging them. It's about making them feel value people. When people leave companies because they a have a values clash, be they feel like they're not being developed or they want a new chat, like want a new challenge. I mean, sometimes people.
00:35:53:22 - 00:35:58:21
Speaker 1
Do for more money. Yeah, we know that because we see that on YouTube.
00:35:58:23 - 00:36:00:14
Speaker 2
It might be a combination of fact.
00:36:00:15 - 00:36:13:01
Speaker 1
If you're an employer and you're you're not really able to give people much more money because your business can't afford to. Yeah, yeah. What can you do in it in place of it that would keep people engaged? I mean, that's very much. Sure.
00:36:13:02 - 00:36:33:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it's, So what are they? So how are you then? It how are they then feeling fulfilled in their role. So if, say, your, wages aren't the best, what is it then about your company that makes people want to stay there. Is it the people that they interact with? Is it is it that you have, cake for ideas?
00:36:33:08 - 00:36:58:15
Speaker 2
I don't know, is there some kind of engagement type things that keep people in the organisation, or is it, is it the, people often leave companies as well because of their own direct line manager. So how great are your line managers at managing people with a real focus on development? People will stay in roles even though their wages are not as high as may they get elsewhere because they like the people and because they like their manager and they feel like they are valued.
00:36:58:19 - 00:37:21:23
Speaker 2
If people feel like they belong, you don't necessarily have to be getting the best wage if you feel like you belong, if you feel like you're being fulfilled, and if you feel like there is some kind of development and it's leading somewhere, people will forgive the fact that the wages are not not the highest. So it's a it's like it's a constant kind of juggle between all those different factors.
00:37:22:00 - 00:37:36:22
Speaker 2
But but really focusing on the belonging, the engagement, feeling like you're being developed, like you're cared for. I mean, you use the term common but certainly feel like you're part of something of it. You want to feel like you're a member of this organisation.
00:37:36:24 - 00:37:43:24
Speaker 1
People want to feel part of something. And yes, the belonging points. Really? Yes. And that goes very much with inclusion and.
00:37:44:01 - 00:37:44:14
Speaker 2
Hopefully.
00:37:44:14 - 00:37:45:18
Speaker 1
This podcast. Yeah.
00:37:45:20 - 00:37:48:01
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah. Absolutely.
00:37:48:03 - 00:37:58:23
Speaker 1
So, so manager the leaders of business that are a bit sort of strapped for cash. Yeah. You should really focus on these aspects to keep the team together and to keep the culture strong and.
00:37:58:23 - 00:38:23:18
Speaker 2
Learn, you know learn the skills you could you could go on YouTube. You could read, you know, books on these things, podcasts and, you know, on you could ChatGPT what a great questions to ask my, team about their development. And then you put in, an hour's may separate from a performance review because a lot of, leaders will only do a career development discussion when it's linked with the performance review.
00:38:23:19 - 00:38:36:16
Speaker 2
I think it's a separate thing. I think it needs to be a separate conversation and actually be, be, interested, be curious, listen to them and then help with the development. And it doesn't need to cost.
00:38:36:18 - 00:39:00:01
Speaker 1
And it's very helpful to ask people, you know, what are your hopes and aspirations? People want to feel like, what do you want to do next? How do you see your career progressing? Because it's possible then to help them achieve their objectives. You know what they are. Yeah. So you can't. So I think that's very good advice. So you know, as a as a manager or a leader in a business, when you spot someone that you feel has real potential and you want to sort of lift them up a bit and draw that out of them.
00:39:00:04 - 00:39:05:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. How do you go about doing that in the most constructive way? What advice would you give people?
00:39:05:05 - 00:39:21:12
Speaker 2
I think the first thing is not to make assumptions, because I see this a lot where I had leaders say they've got real potential, I'm going to give them this role or that role or that I'm going to give them it. So firstly, you've got to actually have the conversation and say, and you say, look, I notice you've got great potential.
00:39:21:12 - 00:39:47:22
Speaker 2
Like what? And then ask them, what do you how do you want to develop your career. What do you want. So it starts off as a conversation. So I think that's the first thing not to make assumptions about people's desired commitment. Just because you see it yourself, you want to test that assumption. And if they do, then want to to develop and those assumptions are grounded and correct, then it's about thinking about ways together that you can stretch the development.
00:39:47:22 - 00:40:12:16
Speaker 2
So is it, is it getting a mentor or is it about a different project they could be working on that stretches them in their interest areas? Is it is it a leadership position or a promotion? There's a whole host of different things that you could do, but it's got to be from their interest and desires and what they want versus what you as a leader think that it should be.
00:40:12:16 - 00:40:33:12
Speaker 2
That has to be a a joint discussion, because I have seen it where people push someone in a certain direction. It's just not where they want to go, right? Even though they can see potential. So it's so there may be ways to build confidence in that area. And and it's about experimentation as well. So it's about well let's try this and see how that works.
00:40:33:12 - 00:40:54:20
Speaker 2
It may not work and actually might be a different, directional project that that is the better one for that individual. But it's about not making assumptions, having having the conversation about development and finding ways that are going to stretch, stretch them, keep them challenged in a whole host of different ways of doing that.
00:40:54:21 - 00:41:00:09
Speaker 1
I suppose you need to find out whether they're motivated to. Yeah, I think there's a drive and ambition.
00:41:00:11 - 00:41:28:09
Speaker 2
Kim Scott, who CEO of she was, I think Google Silicon Valley, CEO wrote a book called Radical Candour. And in that book she talks about rock stars, and superstars, I think so, and rock stars are your people that, you know, who keep the business going, grounded in what, what they're doing. They don't necessarily want that fast paced career promotion development.
00:41:28:11 - 00:41:49:23
Speaker 2
And it's important. And so that what they want is breadth of a role to keep, to keep them interested. And where you've got your superstars who want to progress, they want to become the next leaders of the company. And so, when she talks about don't think about not don't assume everybody is a superstar and wants that fast growth leadership development and responsibilities.
00:41:50:00 - 00:41:56:14
Speaker 2
Think about your rock stars. What's going to keep them motivated, fulfilled and stay with the company as well.
00:41:56:16 - 00:42:14:22
Speaker 1
You know, we find in recruitment that there are some recruiters who just want to carry on being fantastic recruiters, where we have a pathway for that and others who might want to go into management. We have a pathway and they're both of equals. Yes. Yeah. I think it's important to give people the opportunity to go the way they want to go.
00:42:14:24 - 00:42:32:18
Speaker 1
Okay. And so is there anything, you know, as a manager we should be particularly tuned into if we're looking for potential? I mean, what I mean, everyone is different. Everyone sort of in different circumstances. But have you noticed anything we should be particularly tuned into? Because I think it's so important to spot potential.
00:42:32:20 - 00:43:04:00
Speaker 2
The, the one common theme that I've seen, when people are talking about potential in their teams, is individuals who have a real desire to learn and improve, and where you've got that trait in someone, they can then do anything. And so I think that that's I think if you've got someone who, you know, get something and learns from it or is constantly seeking to improve that, that's the so they may they may not be the loudest voice, they may not be the most confident.
00:43:04:05 - 00:43:05:23
Speaker 1
But it's likely not to be. In fact.
00:43:06:00 - 00:43:16:11
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. But if they're constantly looking for improvement and learning, you see them learning and growing in what they're doing, I think that's a good indicator of potential.
00:43:16:13 - 00:43:29:19
Speaker 1
That's very helpful. I'll remember that. Thank you very much. There. So the last two questions I'm going to ask you a questions I'm asking everyone. Yeah. So the first is you know what gets you up on a Monday morning Steph.
00:43:30:00 - 00:43:48:17
Speaker 2
What gets me up on a Monday morning. The cats. That's fencing. What gets actually I've recently been doing some work where, you know, when you wake up in the morning, what's the first thought that you have in the morning? And I it rather than it be. I've got this to do that to do. And gratitude is probably what was.
00:43:48:17 - 00:44:05:07
Speaker 2
So when I wake up in the morning, I think about what am I really grateful for? And then the second thing I think is, what am I really looking forward to today? So it might be a client. It might be, piece of work that I'm doing. It might be something. I have a nice cup of tea this this morning.
00:44:05:07 - 00:44:11:10
Speaker 2
So the first thing I do is think about what am I grateful for? And then I think, what? What am I looking forward to today?
00:44:11:12 - 00:44:20:13
Speaker 1
Thank you. And the second question is where do you see yourself in five years time? It's a classic interview question from the book, but where do you see yourself in five years time?
00:44:20:16 - 00:44:47:24
Speaker 2
I'd like to be continuing doing what I'm doing now when I'm running the business. Probably, bigger team hitting our growth targets that we've, we've set for ourselves, and continuously growing and we've, we've got global presence now. So continuing to expand the team and grow that that would be my in in five years time. That's not too dissimilar to where I am now, but bigger and more people.
00:44:48:01 - 00:44:57:17
Speaker 1
So growing the business. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you very much. That's perfect.
00:44:57:19 - 00:45:25:11
Speaker 1
Thank you to Steph for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about Steph and driving results through PayPal development, visit her website. The link is in the show notes. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you want to hire the best talent for your business, visit us at red.com and speak to one of our specialist recruiters today.
00:45:25:13 - 00:49:53:05
Speaker 1
See you next time.
All about business is brought to you by Reed Global. Learn more at: www.reed.com
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