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In this episode of all about business, James Reed sits down with Jan Gerber, CEO of Paracelsus Recovery, the world’s no.1 exclusive mental health clinic for the rich and famous.
He reveals the traits both entrepreneurs and criminals share, how to foster well-being in the workplace and why mandatory mental health checks might just save your business.
Paracelsus Recovery takes a unique, tailored approach to treating its patients and has extensive experience at treating CEOs, UHNW individuals and those with a public profile.
03:25 recognising burnout and mental health issues
08:17 the role of addiction and self-medication
12:46 entrepreneurial traits and their dark side
19:48 the concept of reparenting
23:27 balancing physical health and business
28:02 the importance of confidentiality in mental health
34:09 understanding the impact of information diet
39:58 building trust in mental health services
48:12 the role of psychedelics in mental health treatment
53:34 mental health strategies for business leaders
01:01:36 promoting mental fitness and resilience
Follow Jan Gerber on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerberjan/
Visit Jan Gerber’s website: https://jangerber.com/
Learn more about Paracelsus Recovery: https://www.paracelsus-recovery.com/en
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
[00:00:00] Jan: In the entrepreneurial population, you will find a higher incidence of narcissistic traits, of psychopathic traits, also in criminals, as you say, but also higher incidence of ADHD. All of those traits, when they have a certain intensity and they lead to all sorts of problems.
[00:00:14] James: Entrepreneurs all share one common trait, but what if that superpower for driving success leads to the downfall of a business leader and maybe their entire organization?
And how do you spot the signs early? To prevent it from happening. Joining me today on all about business is Jan Gerber. He's the CEO of Paracelsus Recovery, the world's most private and discreet addiction and mental health clinic. In this conversation, we'll reveal what that shared trait is. How the mental health of business leaders in the public eye can impact an organization.
And how Jan has cemented his clinic as number one for the super rich and famous.
[00:00:51] Jan: We realized there is a need purely from an entrepreneurial perspective. We were one of the first mental health providers in the world that looked also into physical health, into functional health, into [00:01:00] gut health, hormone levels.
Because it all plays a role as well in emotional resilience and well being. People have been neglected emotionally as kids go out into the world to prove their worth to the world But actually in the end to themselves that can lead to tremendous success I think really a crucial and helpful and important way to go about it is mandatory mental health checks But hang on you just
[00:01:22] James: said mandatory mental health check.
Yeah. I mean, what's that involved?
So I'm really pleased to welcome today to our all about business studio, which has been refammed. You might notice if you're watching, um, Jan Gerber, who's come all the way from Switzerland, Zurich in Switzerland. So thank you, Jan, for coming. Jan is the founder of more than 20 companies. So serial entrepreneur, but his particular focus is the mental health of business people and [00:02:00] entrepreneurs.
And he has his business Paracelsus. That focuses specifically on that and supports people who need help. So, Jan, my first question is around the entrepreneurial mind. I love that idea, the entrepreneurial mind. And you work with entrepreneurs and executives supporting them with their mental health. What's the most common issue that people seek your help for?
[00:02:28] Jan: Right. It's actually not a straightforward answer, but first of all, thanks for having me. Nice to meet you. Um, it's, uh, it's normally complex and messy. So, uh, obviously we know, um, kind of from the public narrative, burnout is an issue, you know, lots of stress can lead to that. Often, uh, um, there is depression, anxiety, um, uh, that plays a role, but then more often not, you know, uh, uh, affected individual, they start self medicating and with Prescription medication often, you know, kind of sleep goes first, uh, [00:03:00] um, often then with alcohol or even illicit drugs just to, to function.
So there is often a layer of substance use issues on top of that. Um, so there's no one kind of main thing why entrepreneurs or business leaders seek our help, but you cover all those bases all the way to a
[00:03:16] James: personality disorders. Why don't we take them one at a time? I mean, you've given sort of three big areas.
Concern there. I mean, the first burnout, I mean, how does, how does someone recognize that in themselves or think that this might be a problem and how does it sort of. Come to the light. If you know, how does it become an issue? Where does it start? And how does it grow?
[00:03:42] Jan: I mean early symptoms often is sleep goes first.
So, um, and it's normal as an entrepreneur as a business leader that, you know, you have, you do a sleepless nights, uh, during the most stressful phases, a transaction, economic downturn, whatever. Um, but if there is a. Uh, a pattern, a kind of a downhill [00:04:00] pattern often, you know, that's one of the early symptoms.
Um, other things can be just, uh, uh, increased irritability again, reliance on substance, brain fog, anxiety that, uh, that creeps in, uh, that were not there before or not that prevalent before. Anxiety is normal for entrepreneurs as well. Right. But, uh, so you need to, uh, in relation, if that gets worse, um, then you.
Probably on a kind of a sliding scale towards so sleep. I mean, I
[00:04:25] James: know personally, I'm often awake at three o'clock in the morning. Three, three to four. I know I talked to other entrepreneurs. Oh, yeah, I'm off to give me a call. People say, you know, they'd like to, but that is a sort of typical time when you might wake up and think about something and it might be something that's causing anxiety or might just be an idea.
I find myself sort of doing that in the middle of the night quite frequently. But
[00:04:45] Jan: I always say something's a problem when it becomes a problem by being awake at three in the morning. If that's your most productive phase, if you don't need a lot of sleep, that's all fine. But if you normally sleep from, let's say, I don't know, 10 or 11 p.
m. until three in the morning and then, you know, a few [00:05:00] hours of productive time to sleep another hour or two. Um, and then suddenly it's down to the four hours or even the falling asleep gets harder because your mind is racing and you're worried about stuff. So that's it's a quality, not just necessary duration and a constant pattern.
Ideally.
[00:05:14] James: Yes. So, so that's burnout. So then we have anxiety and depression, which you just mentioned, which is, There's been sort of a lot of comment recently in the UK around people being diagnosed the medicalization of sort of life's difficulties, I suppose, um, and that's become more common, but put me through that one of the first signs that I guess sleeplessness is one, but when, when does someone move from just being a bit down to being anxious and depressed and how do you recognize that?
[00:05:46] Jan: Again, I mean, diagnosis help and the psychiatric big books and all of that, uh, in a way just to make sense of things. Um, but in the end you just have to watch, uh, the symptoms and what, what, uh, what the consequences are. So if it impacts [00:06:00] your life, if it impacts your private life, if, if, uh, it impacts your, your performance, uh, if you really start feeling unwell, you can, you can tell.
Uh, it happened to myself as well. So it's, um, um, it's about paying attention really to, to, to yourself and, uh, and your wellbeing. So you've had personal experience of this? Yeah. Yeah. I've been in the clinic for a few weeks actually. And, and, and I thought it's burnout. So I had a therapist at the time who said, You're burnt out.
You should go to a clinic. In the end, the diagnosis was actually acute depression and that's also because you can name it whatever you like. It's often, it's kind of a mesh of, you know, different symptoms and it doesn't really matter that much, at least initially, uh, what is, you know, what is actually the diagnosis just when it's acute
[00:06:48] James: depression, it's important
[00:06:49] Jan: to get medical support, isn't it?
Uh, therapeutic support, at least medical professional support, let's call it that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's almost impossible really. So once you reach a certain turning point, it's [00:07:00] almost impossible to kind of, for that to just go away on its own or for yourself, uh, or just, you know, with help of friends and family to get out of it.
[00:07:06] James: One of, one of my guests recently was here and she said that she was beginning to get depressed and she'd had this before, recognized it as such and, and, uh. I wasn't feeling particularly qualified to support her, but I hope that she is now feeling better. I think she, she is from what I've heard. So, so yeah, so I think it is professional support.
And then, and then the self medication thing, um, you mentioned that, I mean, I mean that that's closely related to addiction. I'm guessing. Addiction actually is by
[00:07:40] Jan: definition, self medication. Oh, talk me through that. So, here's the thing, uh, addiction is often, uh, misconceived, uh, or there's a misconception around it that it's, uh, you know, you take a drug, or if you take a drug too much, or if you drink too much alcohol, you will get addicted.
That's almost never the case. It's when there is an underlying problem, [00:08:00] either, you know, a traumatization, or too much stress, um, or personality disorder, and that creates emotional pain. And that pain is, and that reached a level where it's not bearable anymore. It's natural for us human beings to try to evade that somehow and self medication.
Now be that with alcohol, be it prescription medication that is, you know, legitimately prescribed by the GP or psychiatrist, uh, or illicit drugs. Um, and these are all ways to, to kind of, and their behaviors as well. You know, some people, I know. So you're saying that
[00:08:30] James: the, the, the, the alcoholism is a consequence of the addiction.
[00:08:35] James (2): Oh,
[00:08:35] James: I haven't, I haven't described it. It's a symptom. I stopped drinking a few years ago and I'm probably more committed to my work. Now I'm really sort of focusing on that. I love working on it. Yeah. And what's that about? But I feel that there's this, is that part of the entrepreneurial mind, this sort of focus, this sort of passion or [00:09:00] the sort of obsessive nature of an entrepreneurial
[00:09:03] Jan: mind.
I'm sure to a degree. Now again, um, as I said, uh, before, um, we really have to focus on something is a problem when it becomes a problem. And honestly, that's true with Also, even the use of substances, it's, uh, it's true with, uh, how much we work or, you know, whatever we do, uh, we can draw tremendous, uh, pleasure and energy from working very, very, very hard.
Um, but if that starts impacting our relationships, if that starts impacting our physical wellbeing and at some point there was some emotional wellbeing as a consequence, just to be aware of that in itself, there's nothing wrong with, you know, working nights and getting up at three in the morning with big ideas.
[00:09:42] James: No, no, it's sort of, um, well, it gives you plenty. I mean, it's not a problem until it's a problem. I mean, is there a sort of checklist of what makes something a problem? I mean, you mentioned relationships. You mentioned, I mean, what are the top, say three things we should be looking out for that might say, Hey, I've got a problem [00:10:00] here.
[00:10:00] Jan: Yeah. Um, I mean, often it's actually people around us recognizing it earlier because once you're in the middle of it, you're in this drive and you're just trying to stay afloat. And, uh, it's hard to kind of, you know, Take a step back, like, okay, no, actually, this is going downhill. This is not sustainable.
I'm actually already having a family, for instance. So
[00:10:21] James: what typically might
[00:10:22] Jan: happen? So you have enough, well, just ideally fostering an open dialogue with your family. So as an entrepreneur, you tend to already have, you know, specific family dynamic that others. Don't have, you know, in terms of how much your home, how much you work once you get home, uh, being reachable around the clock, uh, um, uh, being stressed, et cetera.
Uh, so ideally, uh, you can, uh, foster, uh, an open dialogue around how you're perceived and especially if things change and things, you know, change to the worst because often entrepreneurs, uh, especially when things get, you know, successful and, you know, you, you build more stuff before you have reliable middle manager, all that you do everything yourself, uh, your relationships kind [00:11:00] of.
All the way and for some time your spouse or your family, they can hold that. But at some point it might just break away. And then you notice it's gone. Ex advocates the problem.
[00:11:10] James: Yeah. So, but it's important to spot the problem before it becomes
[00:11:16] Jan: a bigger problem. Early warning signs. I mean, prevention is in any, uh, health topic physically as well as emotionally.
Prevention is the best thing, obviously, right? And then early detection, uh, as it is with cancer, heart disease, the same with, uh, with mental health. Early detection can prevent a lot of expensive and very painful fallout, uh, further down the line. And then, uh, if that's kind of missed, you know, so there is professional care out there, um, that people should not be
[00:11:43] Jan (2): ashamed to access.
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[00:11:55] James: career. So I don't know whether this is just a cliche. I [00:12:00] mean, I'm interested in what you think, but it's been said that sort of entrepreneurs have a certain, often a certain personality type or traits.
Um, and, and the, you know, maybe they help, they're helpful in some ways and a hindrance in others. Is that your view? Is that, I mean, and if so, what are they, what are the sort of traits you've recognized? It's actually a hundred percent, my view. A hundred percent. Actually, you know, uh, come on, let's talk through that.
Cause I'm really interested in this. What are the traits?
[00:12:27] Jan: Actually, uh, way back, I started my PhD in business, uh, with a focus on, uh, um, emotional or psychological traits of what's called that beat entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs that just keep on going, even though they're not getting off the ground and there's, you know, purely economically would be better off actually.
That was my professors, it was a working title. I never finished a PhD, right. But, uh, and that was way before I got into healthcare, mental health space, but back then it was recognized by some of the leading business schools. So there is [00:13:00] obviously, I think that's clear to all of us entrepreneurs have certain traits when we call them risks.
Increased risk appetite, or, you know, uh, more risk taking than the average population, uh, hyper focus, uh, kind of this, you know, stamina. Um,
[00:13:16] James: so risk taking hyper focus, whether you went sort of let something go. Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:21] Jan: And, uh, um, um, also, you know, kind of certain resistance to criticism might be something that's associated with successful entrepreneurs anyways.
Um, and because you need to do. Uh, kind of see your way through when everybody else is like, you know, that's the wrong way to go. That again, that also is related to thinking out of the box, certain creativity and also daring to, uh, take another path than everybody else proposes or does. So that's, that's all traits that are, uh, associated with entrepreneurship.
[00:13:53] James: Some of those traits might be also associated with being a criminal. Has that, have you ever been asked that? Oh
[00:13:58] Jan: no, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty [00:14:00] fine
[00:14:00] James: lines often. Often it is. I mean, there's plenty of entrepreneur gangster. I
[00:14:04] Jan: mean, lots of gangsters are very good entrepreneurs and there was a book that was proposed to me the other day, how to run a drug cartel or something like that, which is purely based on economics.
I haven't read it. So I don't want to endorse it, but in the end, I mean, yeah, running a gangster empire is entrepreneurship as well. Right. Um, no, but, uh, it's true. So, so there is also. Like in the entrepreneur and population, you will find a higher incidence of, uh, of, uh, narcissistic traits of psychopathic traits also in criminals, as you say, uh, but also higher incidence of ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
So creativity, risk taking hyper focused these are these traits bipolar, uh, as well, you know, kind of in a, in a manic phase, immensely productive and motivate, and you can take others along, uh, Charisma, leadership, again, often associated with narcissism. Um, [00:15:00] so, but the flip side of all of those traits, uh, when they, uh, when they have a certain intensity, uh, the diagnosable, you know, uh, mental health, uh, conditions and to lead to all sorts of problems.
So in the, um, population of, of, uh, of addicts. So, so, um, you have, uh, I think six to eight times the incidence of ADHD. Uh, um, Affected people in nine alcoholics, six times in cocaine, uh, addicted, uh, people. And I think 10 to 20 times, uh, the suicide rates in, uh, in, uh, amongst, uh, CEOs. Uh, so these are, so that's a very high
[00:15:39] James: suicide rate.
[00:15:41] Jan: Yeah. So if you, so we have a research team that's kind of, you know, whatever is publicly, uh, because it's not research enough, whatever is publicly available. We looked into, uh, You know, from CEOs to Oscar winners to, you know, kind of all the, all the things that, you know, success, wealth, fame, um, um, what's the mental health flip side of that.
And the [00:16:00] statistics are very, very clear. It's, it's always multiples.
[00:16:03] James: So these things that people set out because they're looking for, you know, fame and fortune. Yeah. Come with a high price.
[00:16:11] Jan: Another factor that's often not enough talked about, and it's not technically, uh, often on the mental health diagnosis in that sense.
But, uh, uh, you see that quite often in the entrepreneur, uh, business leader, uh, um, uh, population, people have been neglected emotionally as kids. They're not shown enough love or appreciation, uh, by their parents or significant, uh, um, uh, people in their lives. Um, they kind of, uh, go out to, uh, into the world to prove their worth, uh, to the world, but, uh, actually in the end to themselves, um, that, uh, that they're worthy of something.
And, uh, and that can, uh, compared to You know, a person who's equally well educated or equally intelligent, equally well equipped, um, with that [00:17:00] additional stamina, that kind of most ferocious, uh, drive to show that you're worth something that can lead to tremendous success.
[00:17:09] James: But also brings with it sort of vulnerabilities.
I mean, you've really got something to prove, haven't you, whether it's to yourself or your parents. And that's deeply psychological and exactly. And the
[00:17:19] Jan: issue is that, uh, you know, it's kind of chasing that, that carrot, no success, even if you make billions and you come from a modest background, uh, that will not fill that void.
[00:17:33] James: I mean, there's always someone who's more successful anyway.
[00:17:36] Jan: Well, that's another thing.
[00:17:39] James: That's always a problem. I mean, when they call it the bereavement of achievement, I mean, it's still, still, the void is still there because you can't
[00:17:46] Jan: go back. It's no, no substitute for, uh, kind of this nurturing your, your emotional and you can, you can.
I mean, if you didn't receive that form from your parents, you can build that [00:18:00] through any healthy relationships or, uh, it's a, uh, a phrase called reparenting, right? A therapeutic modality kind of, you know, you can't yourself talk to your inner child, uh, um, and kind of a remedy that, that's for it. But
[00:18:12] James: listening to you makes me worried that entrepreneurs might repeat that with their own children, you know, by becoming so sort of focused on building a business that again, that's, that's the sort of pattern that repeats.
I mean, so I always think we're an entrepreneurial family that might be why I mean, I'm appalled by that thought, but it's perhaps
[00:18:32] Jan: many mental health issues in particular addiction as a symptom, but, uh, uh, is, is, uh, kind of known to be a generational issues. It's in a way handed down and the addiction is a bit of genetic component, but most of it is, it is behavioral.
So it's about recognizing that and, uh, and, uh, um, with intent breaking that pattern. I think that's a responsibility that we all have, if you're from an [00:19:00] entrepreneurial family.
[00:19:01] James: Talk me through this re parenting. You just said that. How do you do that?
[00:19:06] Jan: How do you re parent yourself? So I'm, I'm not a qualified therapist.
I can kind of talk you through all the details, but in the end, the notion is that, um, I mean, that's one philosophy, uh, sorry, one treatment philosophy or one treatment approach amongst many psychotherapeutic approaches. Um, but, uh, there's a notion that, uh, we, we all carry an inner child, you know, the one that's, uh, that's been anxious, that still makes us anxious.
The one that was, you know, neglected, uh, uh, in our actual childhood, that's still kind of, uh, is hunger for, hungry for attention or love. Um, and, and then we go out and, and, uh, and, uh, and act out in all sorts of ways. And we don't realize why. Um, so the idea is, um, that this is in a child, if we kind of put that focus, our attention on, on that and, and, and it's emotional needs and, and remedy that we're kind of re parenting.
So be [00:20:00] kind to ourselves. And that can be also like in hypnotherapy, that can be just exercises, right? Where you, you hold your, your young self, um, and, uh, just kind and compassionate and show love and appreciation.
[00:20:15] James (2): That's interesting. Yeah. What gave you the idea to start a business like that?
[00:20:22] Jan: So as many good business ideas, uh, I think it just happened by accident.
So I was already, uh, entrepreneurial, active, uh, at the time. I'd already founded some companies, some more or less successful after, uh, stepped out of, uh, of a career as a management, uh, consultant. I always knew I would be an entrepreneur one day. And, uh, what actually happened was, uh, so both my parents are in, uh, were, uh, in, in mental healthcare, right?
Um, and it was a, a friend of, a friend of probably a friend, uh, uh, of the family. Was a top executive of a listed company that developed an alcohol use [00:21:00] disorder and couldn't go to any. So you need an inpatient type care at that escalation level. Couldn't go to any rehab or, you know, a clinic because the board and himself and, you know, everybody involved that were afraid to stock market price, which was tacked if that came out.
So he's a high profile person. Yeah. So basically moved into the guest room at my parents place and we organized, you know, a butler, a chef and, uh, um, and an external psychiatrist. And, uh, um, uh, my mom would do all the clinical coordination. Um, and then we would already, uh,
[00:21:33] James: uh, you help solve this particular individual's problem as a family.
And that
[00:21:38] Jan: was the beginning of your business. Yeah. Basically we realized there is a need, there's a niche, right? So purely from an opportunity. Um, um, And there's a confidentiality, I guess, was the main reason why there was space for this idea to emerge. And then based on that, obviously, you know, um, uh, if you treat only [00:22:00] one client with whole team around it, uh, you need to charge quite a price for that because the costs are, uh, well, at first it made sense to, to, to, to, to kind of, uh, uh, Look out of the box as entrepreneurs do, um, what other treatments modalities that normally are not offered in a mental health space could add value, but are normally not part of it for, for cost reasons.
So we were, as far as I'm aware, the first, or at least one of the first kind of mental health providers in the world that looked also into, into physical health, into functional health and gut health, hormone levels, um, and these type of gland functioning, um, because the digestive system that all plays a role as well in, you know, in our emotional resilience and wellbeing.
[00:22:41] James: We haven't discussed that of the physical health and what people can do to sort of sustain good mental health through physical activities or diet. Have you got some advice?
[00:22:53] Jan: Well, this is one stay fit, right? Uh, uh, you, uh, you'll hear that often. What do you say? Stay fit. What if you're not [00:23:00] fit to start with?
You have to make space to get fit then. Right. Um, and that's true for anybody, not just for, for, you know, for entrepreneurs or business leaders. When you say fit,
[00:23:08] James: what do you mean?
[00:23:09] Jan: Uh, just, you know, kind of the, the usual, uh, advice of X, uh, two and a half hours of cardio exercise a week, some resistance training ideally.
Uh, and if you can't do that, at least, you know, something is better than nothing. Um, and that's advice is true for everybody. The problem with business leaders, entrepreneurs is often, that's the first thing that goes when times get stressful. Like I have so much to do. I'm scheduled to go to the gym now, but actually I need to finish this meeting or make that.
Call all that. So what do you cancel, right? It's family, it's workouts and all that, then eat healthy. Um, and, and with healthy, it just, you can caffeine, lots of sugar, you know, do these kinds of things. That's just, that's normal. We all have this. Probably it's, I don't make assumptions about you, but you're not doing stressful.
That's what you start craving when, when your brain and your brain kind of needs that. Um, so just watch that. [00:24:00] Um, so again, Pragmatism. It's, it's, it's a problem when it becomes a problem. Um,
[00:24:05] James: and what I've found works for me is I sort of make my exercise time before eight in the morning because no one really wants any of my time before eight in the morning.
So I go to the gym, I do yoga or I do Pilates. But so four days a week, I'm doing something before eight. And I really like that because I think that's my time between half six and eight.
[00:24:24] Jan: You know, uh, that's funny because I used to think of myself as a kind of my exercise time was more like 4 or 5 p. m.,
but that would mean I would have to step out of the office exercise, you know, go back to the office. And at some point again, that just fell away. Um, so, and I just could not train in the morning. I was like, I just didn't have the energy. I couldn't. do it after breakfast, I would, you know, feel nauseous. I can do it before breakfast because I work with the hyperglycaemic.
Um, but then I just train to, I had no other choice. So I do the same thing. First thing I get up in the morning, uh, you know, try to get at least half an hour, if not an hour of cardio, uh, in, and often that's enough. If you do that several times a week and, uh, and you still have time for a coffee and [00:25:00] breakfast after that, before the phone calls.
It's kept me going all these years. And I, and
[00:25:03] James: I actually really enjoy, I look forward to that time of day. I'll just be in bed or. Probably going to the office otherwise. So it seems to make sense. But you have
[00:25:10] Jan: to consciously make space for that because there's plenty of excuses why in a busy schedule you can't make space.
Sometimes you
[00:25:18] James: have to travel and it doesn't work, but it's sort of important to try and come back to it. I think I've found in my own career that if I get overtired or I'm not exercising, that's when I start feeling a bit flat.
[00:25:30] Jan: And it's often a vicious circle. You're already tired, like I can't exercise today, but actually exercise would exactly be, you know, beneficial to kind of stop that.
So making,
[00:25:40] James: making time for sleep and time for exercise is really, I think, very important. And you're, you're saying that's your experience.
[00:25:48] Jan: A hundred percent. Um, and then there's also, I mean, you can put that in the mental or the physical health space somewhere in between is, uh, there's a reason why you hear more and more on podcasts and elsewhere that, you know, [00:26:00] very high profile, successful people, they all, many of them talk about their own meditation practice.
Um, and some of them, you know, put that into kind of entrepreneurial creative context. Like I said, so I, I take this half an hour or hour a day strictly because the big ideas they come. Do you do that? Uh, I'm struggling to establish one, but I am working on it. So they
[00:26:20] James: do half an hour meditation
[00:26:21] Jan: a day. Uh, so that's my aim.
I haven't, again, that's one of the things that for me. Kind of goes away first when things get too busy. So I don't want to, you know, preach water and drink wine as people say, but there is plenty of evidence. It's a German saying, maybe, I don't know. But, uh, um, but there's, there's very good reason that a lot of people who have been able To establish that they just rave about it.
So it's, it's, it's can be conducive to, to, to new ideas and creativity, but also on the mental health prevention side. So, you know, kind of going one.
[00:26:56] James: Yeah. Well, I, I like doing yoga and there was an element of [00:27:00] meditation around that. Um, if you're, if you're a business leader, more and more, I think personal brand is becoming important because of the many media channels, social media, et cetera.
I hear that more and more. But if your personal brand is very public, it becomes more difficult, doesn't it? If, if you then become unwell in some of the ways that we've described to, to seek support. I mean, it must be important that that is very private. Is that a key part of your focus?
[00:27:35] Jan: So, yeah, so, so, as I mentioned, I think our first client and the kind of the idea started from more around confidentiality than actual clinical expertise.
Uh, um, So the confidentiality
[00:27:45] James: really came top. That was the first part of the offer. If you come to us, confidentiality, we absolutely protect it.
[00:27:50] Jan: Exactly. And that's really the case. I mean, uh, and we take, you know, tons of measures to protect the confidentiality of our clients. [00:28:00] Um, and you know, I, I would agree that, you know, as a, as a investors in a public or private company, it doesn't matter a startup, uh, as business partners or even as clients, you will look at, you know, how the leadership.
behaves if they feel, you know, it seems like they're in a good place or not good place. And, uh, and if information becomes public that they're struggling emotionally, yes, there are risks to that. Um, like the stock market price for instance. Um, but I also. I like to think, but I do think, and I think we see evidence of that emerging with mental health conversation changing over the last few years, particularly since COVID, but also already a bit before, uh, and also the dialogue and also what we're doing here, you know, the dialogue about, you know, the pressures on the, on entrepreneurs and business leaders.
Um, I hope that we see, uh, uh, The very near future, um, uh, kind of a new leadership role evolving and people are more open and vulnerable, uh, and authentic. Um, because in a way that's, you know, that's [00:29:00] what we look for in leaders, right? We want Somebody, yes, strong and who sees us through crisis, but we also want somebody relatable and empathetic.
And if you, if you own up to your own struggles and say, you know, I need to, I know I need to take a step back or this has been really hard for me. Um, that, uh, I think overall, um, makes, makes a leader actually better leader.
[00:29:22] James: That's become sort of a question of some interest though, hasn't it? To what extent?
Would you follow someone who was very open about all sorts of weaknesses over someone who appeared to be pretty robust and say, Hey, come with me. You know, we're going to make a success of this. Me
[00:29:39] Jan: personally, I'd rather invest in a startup or in a company where a leader says, look, I know one weekend a month or two weekends a month.
I just need with my family. I need that for my own well being or I have been seeing a therapist or I am seeing a therapist or I need to take, you know, a week or two off. I go to a retreat once a year. I'd rather have somebody like that, [00:30:00] uh, than somebody who's like, um, I'm going strong in the office, 24 seven, we're going to double our revenues.
And then suddenly they start displaying some erratic behavior in public. It becomes
[00:30:09] James: unbelievable, doesn't it? You know, I get up at four every morning. Um, yeah. So I think there's a sort of honesty element to this too. I mean, we're all human and it's not, we're not invincible.
[00:30:19] Jan: That's the thing. And I think authenticity beats, you know, it, uh, kind of beats the hiding of, it's not weakness anymore, really.
Um, obviously to a degree you have to. Stand up. They have to kind of, uh, um, uh, um, show confidence in, uh, uh, in, in what you're doing and, and be there as a, as a strong leader. But I think we're getting into a time where that that's not in a contradiction anymore with also showing a vulnerable side and just being open about, you know, certain struggles.
[00:30:48] James: Yeah. I mean, I do think it's something that we're still weighing up though, you know, as, as, as, as a society, you know, how, how open. Is it wise [00:31:00] to
[00:31:00] Jan: be 100 percent so I'm seeing a trend that I'm hopeful about, but then, uh, I mean, let's be honest in the end, you have to be pragmatic about it. Right. So if, uh, particularly if, if, uh, if, if a lot depends on the reputation of the, uh, of the leadership, if something emerges or even acutely happens kind of in a mental health, uh, uh, for them, it has to be very carefully managed.
They have to be, it has to be a good PR team. There has to be privacy. You can't just kind of,
[00:31:28] James: are there any, are there any sort of public examples? I'm not asking to sort of breach any concept that you've observed where you've seen a business leader handle this. Well,
[00:31:38] Jan: um, that's a very good question, actually.
Um, no, I'm. The thing is this. So in all transparency, I'm not following the news for more than two years now for mental health reasons. So that was my own kind of, so you decided not to follow them. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what happened in the last two years in terms of, you know, big stories. So [00:32:00]
[00:32:00] James: you don't, you're not obsessively looking at Twitter and seeing what's trending.
And you made that decision as a business person and a entrepreneur for your own benefit. Talk me through that. I mean, I want to understand that because I've heard other people say this and you know, you're just being dumped on with negativity. If you look at news. That's exactly
[00:32:17] Jan: it.
[00:32:18] James: And you know, so how's that going?
[00:32:20] Jan: Oh, it's going well. I mean, I don't notice it anymore. Right. Only when it comes up in conversations, like, have you heard about what happened in Los Angeles? And when I was asked, so you don't even look at the telly or anything. No. But you've got a phone.
[00:32:34] James (2): Yeah, but you don't have
[00:32:34] Jan: any of these. Well, the social media is only posting environmental health, uh, stuff.
And I do have a team that supports me there. So I'm not exposed to a news feed all the time. And news sites and news apps and all that. And when I walk into it, you know, an airport lounge and there's CNN on or something, then, uh, um, I try to look at the other way. So you're very strict about it. Yeah. So you see
[00:32:56] James: this
[00:32:56] Jan: as poison
[00:32:57] James: basically.
It's
[00:32:57] Jan: a, uh, well, for myself, [00:33:00] for myself. Yes. Now, uh, actually, and I came across a few times from different people also in podcasts and, uh, and elsewhere. Um, you know, People talk about diets. We need to watch what you put into our body physically, but we need to equally have kind of an information diet because I say poison, you know, a lot of that's information doesn't serve us.
It just creates anxiety. That's a brilliant idea. I really like it. Yeah. Be conscious about what you consume. When you're in a certain industry, obviously you have to know junk food at the moment
[00:33:28] James: on my information diet. Or most of us. Yeah. It does, it sort of winds you up. You sort of think, well, I look at sort of some of these things and they make me angry.
Yeah, angry or sad or anxious. Why am I angry or sad? I have no reason to be. I'm just on my way to do something. Why am I feeling like this? Exactly.
[00:33:45] Jan: One, you put, you nail it and a lot of people don't realize that because it's an automatic process. We have our phones, we consume the news and then suddenly we start feeling anxious or nervous or angry and then we take that, I don't know, in a business negotiation or into a team meeting and we [00:34:00] kind of, you know, after that and she's still with us.
Um, I just felt myself, it doesn't serve me. Um, it doesn't serve my, my purpose. Um, and also my, I stopped when I was like acutely unwell because I realized, you know, so this is part of
[00:34:13] James: the, your sort of issue.
[00:34:15] Jan: Yeah. I just realized when I, you know, read about an innocent family dying on the motorway, why do you need to know that?
Why do you need to know that? But it makes me sad because I start thinking about, you know, the parents and whoever is affected and what if that happened to my family and all that, um, pointless time and energy I could have used for something constructive or beautiful. So I stopped on the first few weeks and months.
Um, I often find myself kind of putting in the, you know, the URL into, I wouldn't have a news app. I always went through a browser and almost already loading the news site because I just out of habit. And then I was like, immediately like, okay, swipe away. And now it's natural. Okay. But one
[00:34:52] James: of the problems for us as business people is so much is sort of.
Pervade through social media. I mean, [00:35:00] we have brands that people want to learn about. We want to inform people about things and it's quite hard, isn't it? Just sort of turning back on that, you know, I suppose we're putting this podcast out. It will be on people's phones and I enjoy listening to what you have to say.
But if, if they took a very strict view of what you've just said, they wouldn't ever hear that, would they?
[00:35:21] Jan: Um, no, actually, no, I don't think so. We have, we have to differentiate that. So I listened to lots of podcasts from, uh, you know, podcasts such as such, uh, such as yours for, you know, entrepreneurs and, uh, and leaders, a lot of mental health stuff, obviously lots of neuroscience and then some geeky stuff.
I'm also interested in like theoretical physics. So that's the thing. I mean, uh, obviously at some point my algorithm doesn't serve me stuff anymore. Anyways, that doesn't interest me. Right. Um, but there's a difference. I think also like, so I got off, uh, new sites. That's, that's the one thing. And then on socials, uh, I deleted my personal social accounts.
Uh, so I don't [00:36:00] see actually what my friends are doing anymore. And, uh, and all of that because it was just taking up too much time. But, uh, and these days with algorithm, but Algorithms. Uh, and now with kind of ai, uh, uh, emerging, you can say very particularly, so any kinda emerging research in psychiatry, I know about it.
Right? Right. And if it makes big headlines or not, uh, it just finds its way to, so you just ask me ai, the questions tell me about Yeah. And now anything you can tell, you know, most of the news sites even you can already put filters and all that. And now with ai it's even easier. Just say, look, I'm interested in this, this, and that, and don't serve me anything else or serve me
So which sites are you saying this to?
[00:36:34] James: Which sites do you say this to? Are you going through an AI
[00:36:38] Jan: app to
[00:36:39] James: do that? Or are you just So
[00:36:40] Jan: me personally, and I've just, you know, through my Google account, Google News, you can put, I only want to see this. And then I get alerts when there is something. And then when I see in the headline, this is something, you know, it's kind of scandalous, so it doesn't serve me.
I just, uh, And how
[00:36:56] James: many of the people you've worked with, the entrepreneurs you serve, have they [00:37:00] taken this? I did it from you or are you pretty unique?
[00:37:04] James (2): I
[00:37:05] Jan: like to think more and more. It does resonate with people, right? Yeah. Many say I can't do that because I need to know what's going on in the world.
That's what
[00:37:12] James: that's my concern.
[00:37:13] Jan: Yeah. And then I just say, look, I mean, just again, you have to be pragmatic about it to some degree. That's probably true. What I realized is all my peer group, you know, from academia and the old days now friends and various, uh, successful, you know, many of them successful positions when you meet them.
After work, you talk about the economy, about inflation or politics, all of that. Um, that's, you know, that's kind of an intellectual dialogue, right? And then I'm, they just got used to that. I'm not participating in that because I can't. And so automatically when I meet people just, you know, one to one, that doesn't even come up anymore when it's in a group.
Uh, I know, uh, um, , I just, but mysteries of life and the universe or, or mental wellbeing. I mean, that's what I talk about's a lot. Right. Mystery life. That's,
[00:37:59] James (2): that's, yeah. [00:38:00]
[00:38:01] Jan: Or the, or the last holiday or how the kids are doing, you know, things that, that mattered to me personally and, uh, yeah.
[00:38:07] James: And
[00:38:07] Jan: that
[00:38:08] James: making follow, you're not following a foot football team.
They talk about, 'cause you couldn't even look at the results.
[00:38:13] Jan: Well, you can look up the football team results with that. Well, you can get angry about them, right? That's always annoying. But if that's playful, you know, why not? I mean, and you can be angry inside.
[00:38:24] James: But it's not a
[00:38:27] Jan: tragedy in a sense that, you know, like some of the things that happen out there that knowing about it just makes me feel bad and doesn't help anyway.
So
[00:38:35] James: you, your practice, your business. It's focusing on CEOs, entrepreneurs, highly wealthy people are often I imagine. How did you, how did you get to build a brand that Fit that space. You mentioned that you have one client who came to your family home and he started, how did you cater, how did you become, how did you create an awareness in that audience that you were there to [00:39:00] help?
And what makes it particularly important for those type of people? You know, you mentioned confidentiality. Are there other things that they look for?
[00:39:11] Jan: I think the one keyword it all comes down to is, uh, is trust. Right. I mean, you know, trust in brands is valid in any important in any industry, but, uh, in mental health.
Generally, and then specifically with this sociodemographic, uh, group, uh, trust is the main thing. Um, it's hard enough for, for anybody, no matter what your, uh, socioeconomic, uh, background to beginning. Uh, yeah. Well, sorry. They don't know you at the beginning. So it's hard to trust someone you don't know, isn't it?
Exactly. A hundred percent. And it's hard enough for anybody who seeks therapy, right. To, to kind of entrust your vulnerable self to a, to a stranger. Um, so it's about building reputation. So basically the first few years were just. You know, lots of, uh, meeting, uh, referrers, consultants, psychiatrists, GPs, uh, family office principals around the world just being like, here we are, and you can trust us.
And [00:40:00] you have to take my word for it. So
[00:40:01] James: you're also building a reputation in the network that works with all supports. Yeah, that's the only way it works. So you can't do it
[00:40:06] Jan: directly, obviously. And then, uh, and then over time, uh, you know, to the reputation builds. And now we are, we are quite well known actually in the family office space and, uh, and also, uh, A lot of entrepreneurs and top executives, uh, kind of, uh, are in that space, uh, uh, as well that we are, uh, you know, a trustworthy bunch of people to go to when, uh, when, when you struggle
[00:40:29] James: and you get referrals, I guess, from people who've been.
Do people come back?
[00:40:35] Jan: Uh, people do come back. I mean, the thing about the truth about mental health is it's, you know, no matter how good or how expensive the treatment, uh, that's no proxy for, for, uh, how the, how the path goes afterwards. It's often quite entrenched, quite, quite chronic. There you have to be pragmatic about that, you know, an improved quality of life is, is, you know, can be a good outcome, uh, try to stay on that [00:41:00] trajectory, but there are bumps in the road, you know, with addiction or not addiction, uh, mental health is messy.
[00:41:05] James: Yeah, sure. Mental health is messy. So you, this, this issue of trust, I support entirely, but you, you've got to build a team to deliver your service. How do you make sure you recruit trustworthy people?
[00:41:20] Jan: I always proudly and very gratefully say, um, that, uh, number one criteria to work at Paracelsus Recovery at our clinic is to have the heart in the right place.
And then you need to have your diplomas and your, yeah. Okay, so you have to have your heart in the right place,
[00:41:35] James: but how do you tell that when someone's sitting across the table from you at an interview?
[00:41:39] Jan: In the end, I mean, initially it, uh, it came down to, to gut feel. Uh, obviously you meet the people a few times and, uh, and you listen to them and, and you just kind of, I'm quite a sensitive person.
So I try to kind of. Okay. But also an ask certain questions as well, you know, find out what the motivations really are. So what sort of questions? This is important for
[00:41:58] James: all businesses. [00:42:00] None of us want to hire someone who's not trustworthy,
[00:42:02] Jan: but you've
[00:42:04] James: made a business
[00:42:05] Jan: out of this. Well, you're in recruiting.
So I don't want to give you any tips about how to select your people,
[00:42:11] James: but it's so important for you. I can see that. The people you hire trustworthy because you can't afford anyone to be sort of, I mean, one question for carbon blabbing about who's just signed up or, you know, so what exactly, exactly. So how do you make sure, how do you, how do you, have you had problems with
[00:42:28] Jan: that?
Um, Problems not, I mean, people come and go and, and, and, and when you realize it doesn't buy your gut feels got a pretty good track record. Uh, I would, I would say so. Um, but then, so one of the. If you ask, you know what to ask, one of the specific things, for instance, so for me, it's always a red flag when a therapist, uh, no matter what his tenure or, or her reputation, uh, tells me it doesn't make a difference for them, who the patient is.
He sits in front of them. You know, they would, they would, uh, they would treat George Clooney the [00:43:00] same. They would just, you know, John Doe walking in from the road. Um, that's a red flag because you have to be very conscious of, you know, there is in a therapeutic relationship, the patient knows. that you know who he or she is or what they stand for or how wealthy they are or anything like that.
And that has to be acknowledged and kind of built into that therapeutic dynamic. So you pretend to be George Clooney and you have no idea who he is. Well, that's
[00:43:23] James: dishonest, isn't it? For a start.
[00:43:25] Jan: But we did, uh, and a funny thing that actually we did, we did have, uh, quite a, uh, famous Hollywood actress who I did.
I think I was the only person who knew who she was before she came, because I had her on the phone. Um, and we kind of agreed we wouldn't really tell the team that that person is coming. But obviously, then the therapist, I remember one of our psychotherapists who worked with her, walked into, uh, the treatment room with her and was like, I am just watching a series where she was starring as the main, main character and then what kind of made for a funny, [00:44:00] uh, human moment.
Um, but in the end, it's, it's not really just acknowledging that professionally, that there is, there is something to that. And you know, people are. Stars struck to a certain degree from very minimal pragmatic. There is a therapist should be too. Oh my God. But nobody's like, I don't care. It is, you know, there's
[00:44:19] James: a different, there's a recognition.
It's almost some level. Like you think, well, I know that person, even if you don't.
[00:44:26] Jan: And that's another factor actually is that it's very important because often the role portrayed by a business leader or a celebrity or doesn't matter somebody successful. Um, yeah. Is rarely how they perceive themselves, so who they really are, they kind of devolve themselves with, uh, with the quirks and kinks and anxieties and everything.
Um, so to give them the feeling, the genuine feeling that they're really seen as a human being, that's not, that's a quality that. You know, it doesn't come just because you're a qualified therapist. So that's also something to look out for.
[00:44:59] James: [00:45:00] So how long would a, I mean, obviously every situation, every person is different, but how long would someone typically stay with you for?
Um,
[00:45:07] Jan: the average is about six weeks. Uh, again, as you say, it depends on the condition and everything, but we also, we are very pragmatic. It's, uh, we did that actually business leaders, uh, should stay for a week or so, because they're just. They couldn't step out of, uh, of their role for several weeks without, you know, risking their career or, you know, stock market performance, all of that.
Um, and then Even in one week, just to focus on stabilizing somebody and then putting a kind of a structure in place that therapists can travel back with them. They can come over for the weekends, or we can put a, I mean, it's possible we've done that, put a whole treatment team around somebody and kind of in their home or business environment.
So your clients
[00:45:45] James: come from all over the world, but they are coming to Zurich in the first in Switzerland in the first instance. Yeah.
[00:45:50] Jan: Most clients come versus Zurich and our clientele is globally mobile. It doesn't really It's a flight
[00:45:56] James: away, right? No, quite. And you then, the first week is so important.
You'll [00:46:00] say, but you, I mean, you know, as a business leader, you can easily take a sabbatical for four, six weeks. I mean, it's going to notice.
[00:46:06] Jan: I did. Well, ideally you do. Well, I don't know. I guess it depends, right? It's a, if you're a professional CEO, it doesn't matter if you found a manager professionally hired, right?
Um, taking a. A few weeks absence, uh, which seems untypical then, you know, for you and your tenure, people start asking questions. Um, and that's often issue we face because it's exponentially more sustainable for the outcomes. And, you know, for the healing process, if somebody has six weeks versus even four weeks and exponentially.
obviously exponentially more than four weeks versus just a few days. That's interesting. So you do need to invest the time in this. Yeah. And I cannot stress that enough to all our clients. And we have clients, you know, say, you know, I'm, I'm very intelligent. I can, you know, I can absorb more, uh, uh, than the average person.
You hit, hit me with all the therapy hits me, you know, 14 hours a day. It's not about that. It's, you know, it's the, the, the brain, [00:47:00] uh, uh, has to adjust a lot happens in the subconscious. You have to kind of process things between. therapy sessions. And also your whole physical system needs time to recover.
There's no shortcut to that. So
[00:47:13] James: six
[00:47:13] Jan: weeks is the
[00:47:14] James: advised
[00:47:15] Jan: start. Six weeks is good. Uh, rarely people commit for, you know, six weeks, uh, upfront, but it gives us so much more to work with than if it's four weeks or less.
[00:47:26] James: So one of the things I want to ask you about, I went to a seminar a little while ago about psychedelics.
I think you are, you, you have a view on psychedelics? I do. as a, as a, as a potential treatment for anxiety and depression. Is that right? Yeah. Um, what is your view? Yeah.
[00:47:43] Jan: My view is, and I'm sure that's shared by most people out there who are kind of, uh, following this space or in this space. Um, I would say there's a hundred percent certainty that in the next few years we'll see, [00:48:00] Psychedelics as an important pillar and mental health treatment and psychiatry is it's, it's been clearly established, uh, in research that, uh, uh, it can, it can be immensely powerful for certain conditions.
More conditions are now being researched like eating disorders, substance abuse. There's also already promising emerging research, so not just depression, anxiety disorders and end of life research where it started with. Um, and there's very little side effects. Practically no risk, if done properly, I'm not, don't do it at a rave, right.
But within a therapeutic setting, um, so there's, there's really
[00:48:38] James: taking so long. Cause I've, I heard this before the pandemic and we're now five, six years on, and you're still saying in the future, you said a hundred percent likelihood, but it's taking so long. Why was the vested interest at work here?
[00:48:55] Jan: But you said vested interests.
Uh, um, I think there's several reasons. One [00:49:00] is, um, politics is slow and traditionally, I mean, when I went to school, it was like, all drugs are bad and psychedelics is equal to cocaine and heroin and you know, everything else that's bad out there. Uh, cannabis back then was, you know, it was still kind of taught the same way.
Um, so it, it takes some time to change that. The substance was scheduled globally a while back.
[00:49:20] James: But the way you're describing it would be in a medically. sort of managed situation. It's not like go to parties and hit some, you know, you're talking about it being used to treat people who are unwell. There's a legal restriction.
Plenty of drugs that are used to treat people who are unwell that would be illegal to use at a party.
[00:49:34] Jan: Yeah. No, a hundred percent. The problem is, so there is a, um, you know, uh, there's different schedule levels, uh, of, uh, of substances, right. And, uh, a few decades back, psychedelics have been scheduled as no medical use and dangerous and highly addictive, which is all not true.
So all those things are untrue. All those things are untrue. Uh, but the legal framework is still there and to change something so long. So it takes time and it takes a [00:50:00] lobbying. It takes research and all that. So that's one thing. Um, and on the other side, and I'm also in that camp, um, uh, they have to be.
You know, there's a camp that's that's off the view that there has to be established enough established research and also protocols how to use. So if you just know that, you know, psilocybin, magic mushrooms, uh, can be very effective for, for, for treatment of, uh, of trauma or, or, uh, or depression. Um, But how do you use it?
You don't just give somebody matching mushrooms. Like, what's the dose? How do it several times in, in, in, in which setting, um, do you talk to them? Do they just listen to music? Um, preparation and integration are key. So there's plenty of research there now already, but these protocols are still emerging. Um, so that's why it takes time.
But now, I mean, there's States in the U S there's Australia. Um, there's, there's different places in the world where, where the therapeutic use of psychedelics has been legalized. Right. And how's it going in those [00:51:00] places? Well, the problem is when you legalize before you have kind of an infrastructure in place, then it's, uh, uh, you know, you need a, uh, kind of pharmacy where, where to get it from, you need a legal process, how to prescribe, uh, where to order, and then you need to have the people trained.
The therapists need to first do those trainings, right? So ideally, and that's what we do as well. So we work with ketamine, um, which is legal also in, in, in the UK and in many places in the world. Or, um, certain mental health conditions, um, and which can be quite effective. It's not a classic psychedelic, but on the, it's a lot of insights and trainings, uh, uh, um, uh, around that.
So, and we already train our doctors and therapists. in kind of psychedelic protocols. These trainings are now available, even though strictly, um, um, it's, it's, it will be a few more years until it's fully legal to, to use the substances. But
[00:51:53] James: this must give you some optimism that there's advances that are on the horizon that can be made that will really help a lot of people.
[00:51:59] Jan: I'm, I'm [00:52:00] very optimistic about it. Um, particularly also, I mean, the, the, the economics of health care generally, right, but the mental health care, uh, particularly as well is this, there's not enough therapists and, uh, and it takes so much time to kind of help somebody through a mental health crisis or issue, um, psychedelics have been, uh, kind of recognized as in many of these cases to, uh, act as a catalyst, uh, you know, kind of very conducive.
You can achieve so much in such very little time. Um, so that also, uh, will help the whole system is currently completely overloaded to have just help more people. I don't know
[00:52:34] James: if it's the right way of describing it, but to use a computing analogy, they sort of help reboot the brain. Yeah. Brain plasticity.
That's exactly what research currently thinks is, uh, you know, it's one of the main aspects of
[00:52:46] Jan: powerful. Yeah.
[00:52:48] James: So I think just sort of coming back to where we began, I mean, I'm just thinking of our listeners, a lot of people who are in business, entrepreneurs, CEOs, um, you know, they might be struggling with their mental health.[00:53:00]
I mean, we all have good days. We have bad days. I mean, anxiety and depression is widespread in society, all ages and stages, it seems. Oh yeah. So what can you, can you give some sort of tips that people can apply in there? I mean, we've discussed a few, but in their day to day lives will help us. Each and every one of us manage the challenges of life.
[00:53:25] Jan: So it's a particularly to the, let's say business lead entrepreneur, uh, executive, uh, uh, population. Um, um. Because I think there is more pressure, uh, uh, that's, you know, kind of leads to mental health issues, but also more pressure to hide it. So it's kind of double bind, uh, uh, in a way. So particularly that population, um, I think really a crucial and helpful and important way to go about it is foster an open dialogue.
Um, you can start within your family, your, your, um, your relationships. [00:54:00] Um, But ideally also within the management structure, uh, in the management meeting, you know, it, it should, or in a board meeting with the top executives, it should, it should become normal. Like, how have you been lately? How is your sleep?
Right. All the way to where, um, I'm actually at a board meeting. How are you
[00:54:18] James: sleeping?
[00:54:18] Jan: Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, I've
[00:54:20] Jan (2): never done this. Give it a try. Tell me how
[00:54:25] Jan: it's going. And people might first be like, it's kind of private information, right? No, but I'm also an advocate that, um, You know, mental health of, of, of key personnel should be part of risk management frameworks of larger corporations, because that's often you can hedge your currency risk and your legal risks and, uh, and everything.
But if, you know, if it's just top person, it's just kind of a crash. Um, so, uh, you know, from mandatory mental health checks to, uh, and so on, but, um, Hang on. You just said mandatory mental
[00:54:57] James: health checks. I mean, what's that involve? I've never heard this [00:55:00] either. So you say to your team, you have to go off and see a doctor for a mental health check.
[00:55:05] Jan: Once every six months or once a year, you have to. There are some corporations that's yeah. And how do people receive that? Uh, again, it depends how we contextualize it. It's like, I think you're all ill, you know, it's, uh, well, I don't trust you. And you have to talk to the therapist. I
[00:55:22] James: introduced this to my team, but God taught me through this.
Cause it's, I've never heard this before either. It's very interesting.
[00:55:28] Jan: If you frame that as a win win, which it is, you know, it's, uh, obviously there's immense personal. pain that can result from somebody becoming unwell. So, uh, uh, you will benefit yourself if you're kind of, uh, uh, uh, obliged to, to do occasion to see, see, uh, uh, a therapist for mental health check in so that there can be early detection.
Uh, now we are in, and
[00:55:53] James: you just remind me of the James Bond film. He kept failing his test after we checked [00:56:00] out by the returns to the freight, you know, there's almost a stereotype about doing that. Isn't that what you're saying? It's a good,
[00:56:09] Jan: that's actually very true. Uh, Um, and, uh, and, uh, some business leaders will struggle to, you know, to open up and, uh, um, Don't people, wouldn't
[00:56:19] James: people worry that they might lose their job if they get a report coming back to the CEO saying this person It has to
[00:56:24] Jan: be set up properly and framed properly.
So I have a Um, you know, good friends working at, you know, one of the big companies that's been famous, uh, in internet companies that's been famous for, uh, making therapists, right, or, uh, make, making therapists, uh, accessible for, for all their staff. And, uh, um, but, uh, people don't. Access it apparently because they're, you know, somewhere your manager know that would be a warrior.
Exactly. So, but if the top person, you know, the president of the board, a CEO, um, says, look, I'm doing it myself and I want. [00:57:00] You all, you all to do it as well. And you know, for this, this and those reasons, and also obviously ensure confidential confidentiality around that. Um, I know. So that's, we talk now kind of, you know, risk management, big structure, but generally if you're an entrepreneur, if you're, if you're a business leader and, you know, stress is part of your everyday life, um, uh, we talked about if you feel your sleep going in a certain direction, if you feel anxiety creeping in a brain foggy, um, You know, sooner than later, rather now, uh, just either get a kind of therapeutic coach or even just, you know, see a proper, uh, psychotherapist, um, um, because that's likely then to just go downhill otherwise.
So
[00:57:44] James: you're advising seeing a psychotherapist to a lot of people would be helpful.
[00:57:48] Jan: Yeah. And a lot of people are open about that. There was a guy, there was a guy on LinkedIn the other day who, uh, um, I was like, I have a, my therapist has an observing board seat. Like that's, that's [00:58:00] progressive . What? So the therapist comes to the board.
Yeah. Right. Can't vote, but can observe. Right. But, uh, , that's interesting. Yeah. I think that's the way to go.
[00:58:09] James: Okay. That's very interesting. And what about if you're not an entrepreneur, you feel very challenged at work, you know, the problem with burnout potentially, or is there anything we can Suggest that be helpful
[00:58:27] Jan: prioritize self care and I think that's what most people affect are most afraid of right is kind of take that time off or put your phone away once you step out of the office because we all we live in a time where you feel I don't know if your manager should know that you've responded to the message even late night.
Um, but your career is not going to crash and burn. If you put some boundaries. Um, but it, it like much more likely will crash and burn if you don't, and if you just let that escalate.
[00:58:55] James: Prioritize self care. Yeah, and on, on this question of sort of [00:59:00] getting mental health checks and encouraging people to do that.
And you said it's a good idea to do it every six months. There is, I suspect, a fear among some people that they might be exposed in some way, and that might make their job, put their job at risk. Is that something you can reassure us about?
[00:59:19] Jan: Well, luckily in this country and in, uh, say most, uh, Western, uh, uh, democracies anyways, uh, there's sound legal framework in place that, uh, you know, you cannot lose your job over a mental health condition.
But I understand that worry, you know, if your superior learns about that, you might, I know, struggle with certain things that, uh, when, when you're up for promotion versus somebody else, uh, uh, who does not struggle with issues. Um, but I think as we get more, um, so A, it's, it's not legal to discriminate on that part.
And B, uh, I think as, as we become more aware, [01:00:00] um, Um, also people in, in, in leadership positions, they would, they would just not be inclined to, to see somebody as, uh, uh, with less potential, uh, you know, to bring value to, uh, to a company. If they struggle with certain issues, I would actually go the other way, um, and say in, in, in many areas, uh, of business, you actually want to select four.
Certain issues like neurodivergence. I'd want in certain positions, I'd want people with ADHD more than somebody without, because they know these traits come with tremendous value as well. So it's not black and white. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't worry about losing a job over it. And I would encourage everybody to do that's important message
[01:00:42] James: for managers and entrepreneurs and people listening that this is a really positive step and you're not going to lose your job.
So we've been talking a lot about mental health. I've heard this sort of expression, mental health. I worry sometimes it makes it sound like someone might be unwell, but I've heard the [01:01:00] expression mental fitness as well. I mean, some of what you've been talking about in terms of getting support for warden, could that be positioned as mental fitness?
Absolutely. Do you like that idea? It's, uh, it's two sides of the same
[01:01:12] Jan: coin and
[01:01:13] James: right. I mean, it seems to me it's sort of more positive. Yeah. I like that. And, and
[01:01:18] Jan: just things sell best, better if they're framed positively. Right. In the end, there's probably, you know, there's, that's. I see this where there's kind of a, you know, a baseline and things can go downhill from there.
And then you can call that, uh, uh, emotionally unwell or mental illness or, um, and if things go, you know, particularly well, or you have much more resilience, uh, or you want to build that resilience, it's kind of up from that baseline, but it's the same thing. It's also the same. It's the same tools. Building mental resilience is the same as preventing mental health.
uh, fallout, mental health issues. It's again, it's a fitness. It's a meditation. It's the fostering health relationships, uh, the prioritizing self care, uh, all that. It's, it's, it's the same, same thing, really.
[01:01:58] James: Well, that's a nice, I think that's a good [01:02:00] point on which to conclude, really. That's a, we can always get even better in our mental health and become fitter in a way through doing some of the things that you've finally.
We
[01:02:10] Jan: talked us through we can, and I would even go as far as we should, we have to, we owe it to ourselves. We owe it to our families. We owe it to our, uh, to our employees, um, that we prioritize that.
[01:02:24] James: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much. I'm so enjoyed talking to you. Thanks, James. I'm going to ask you two more questions that I always ask.
Yeah, sort of signature questions for this podcast. The first is. I think I know the answer, but what gets you up on a Monday morning?
[01:02:44] Jan: Do you know the answer? Well, if you say, you know, the answer, I think your passion for what you do, but I
[01:02:49] James: don't want
[01:02:49] Jan: to put it words
[01:02:50] James: into your mouth.
[01:02:54] Jan: I'm a diehard pragmatist, right? So, uh, uh, so my answer is, it depends. Sometimes it's the coffee and just [01:03:00] because I have to, and, uh, no, but, uh, yeah. Passion helps, right? It's, uh, particularly as a business lead entrepreneur, but generally for, for any job or, or, or whatever you do, uh, you know, that Monday or that week, if you have a passion for it, it's, it's, uh, it's I know light years difference night by magnitudes, a difference in the effort it takes than if you feel you have to.
[01:03:25] James: Yeah. And then the last question is a question from my interview book. One of the 101 questions, which is asked of people a lot is where do you see yourself in five years time?
[01:03:37] Jan: I have absolutely no idea. No, I can answer that honestly because I'm not applying for a job, right? Um, I still see myself, uh, I think in a, in a mental health space.
Um, um, so no, I do have a vision obviously, uh, but I've had
[01:03:52] James: it, I'll tell you
[01:03:53] Jan: about that, but my life experience has showed me that you have, you know, you just have no clue where you are in five years because things happen, [01:04:00] opportunities come, crisis has come and, uh, and, and you just have to kind of navigate that.
Um, no, I'm I suppose it is
[01:04:06] James: your vision in a sense of where do you see yourself through that? I'm referring to what is
[01:04:10] Jan: that? Um, that's alongside my passion is, uh, I think I can make a difference, uh, in fostering the mental health dialogue and, uh, it kind of the niche of intersection of wealth or significant wealth and mental health and, uh, entrepreneurship and, uh, and, uh, business leadership.
Um, that's where there is. The dialogue is still, you know, it needs a lot of fuel and I think I can really make a difference there. Um, which overall then feeds into the overall mental health awareness and kind of breaking through the stigma. There's still lots of work to do. That's my passion. So that gets me up Monday morning and it's also where I see myself more in five years.
[01:04:47] James: Very good. Thank you very much for coming all the way from Zurich to talk to me today. It's been a real pleasure, James. Thank you.
[01:05:00] Thanks.
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