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In this episode of all about business, James Reed sits down with Neil Clifford, the CEO of luxury footwear brand Kurt Geiger. Neil left school with just one O-Level and rose to become a top player in the retail industry.
They discuss the lessons Neil learned from his early retail jobs, why CEOs shouldn’t work from home, and how he helped turn Kurt Geiger into a multi-million-pound international business.
About Neil
Neil Clifford started his career at Kurt Geiger as a store manager and worked his way up to becoming CEO over the course of 20 years. He has been instrumental in expanding the business internationally and launching its online presence. The brand has grown to operate in 28 countries with 57 standalone retail locations.
Neil is also dedicated to giving back to the community, having set up The Kurt Geiger Kindness Foundation which aims to raise £1 million every year to support young creatives. The Foundation has also created Business By Design, an academy for 18–20-year-olds to upskill and prepare them for careers in fashion.
03:12 first jobs and rising through the retail ranks
13:17 career breakthroughs
22:12 private equity and global expansion
37:36 strategies for business growth
40:05 personal reflections
50:24 philanthropy and social responsibility
Check out Kurt Geiger: https://www.kurtgeiger.com/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
[00:00:00] Neil: If you are the store manager in wool age and half your staff are nicking, and then the customers are sometimes threatening you with a syringe of blood for a leather jacket, you get to understand the human race and the good ones and the bad ones. You end up being quite a good judge of character. What
[00:00:14] James: does it take to go from cleaning toilets?
To running a multimillion pound brand. Neil Clifford left school with just one certificate in art, but through Energy Initiative and tenacity became CEO of Luxury Footwear brand. Kurt Geiger. In today's episode, we discuss how dyslexia impacted his career journey, how he adapted his business strategy to open in America and expand online, and how a conversation one Saturday afternoon in Debenhams completely changed
[00:00:44] Neil: his life.
I was then offered the job as the manager of the Principals for men department in Guilford. It was the worst store in the company, 8% stock class, terrible sales. All the staff were nicking basically. So I got rid of all the staff, caught them stealing, used to [00:01:00] go home and then come back an hour later and there was the assistant manager with the shutter up nicking suits and,
[00:01:06] James: well, you had to dismiss everyone.
[00:01:07] Neil: Yep. And you were how old?
[00:01:09] James: I was 19. What were the sort of three main things you did to grow the business life?
[00:01:17] James (2): Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership.
[00:01:34] James: Well, I'm very excited today to welcome Neil Clifford to the studio. Neil is the CEO of the fabulous fashion brand, Kurt Geiger, and he's got an amazing personal story, um, that I'm sure you'll find inspiring. I mean, I'll begin by just mentioning Neil, I hope you don't mind that you left school at 16 with just one O level.
I did. What happened next?
[00:01:58] Neil: I failed the others. [00:02:00] Um, I actually thought I was doing quite well. I was, I'm from Portsmouth, my hometown of sort of typical Grange Hill, sort of comprehensive. I was in the good classes, not the low classes, but I. Actually transpires 40 years later. I'm dyslexic. So I, I, I, I struggled to revise and remember stuff.
Maybe I've got selective memory, but it was a bit of a shock opening that little brown envelope. And all my other mates got 5, 6, 7, 8 O levels and I got C in art was a bit disappointing. So
[00:02:35] James: you didn't know, you had no idea you were gonna get that sort of No, no, no. I was, so that must've been a bit of a shock for you and your parents, I'm
[00:02:42] Neil: suspecting.
Well, or did they not mind? Were you Well, well I, um, my, my father died when I was four actually. So it was me and my mom and she wasn't that interested, be it, that, you know, she was a good mom, but she was more sort of focused on bingo, right. And other [00:03:00] things. So I just sort of threw, threw away the piece of paper and off I went.
Really? I. I just told myself I didn't do very well.
[00:03:07] James: And off you went. I mean, that's the key, key phrase here. Yeah. Yeah. So off you went and, and I understand that you, you got a job in a fiat car dealership. Well, what happened with
[00:03:16] Neil: that was that there was this rule, which still exists, isn't it? Uh, that you had to have, you know, five oh levels to get an apprenticeship.
And I had no idea, like most people really what I wanted to do. And there were no jobs in 83, you know, um, it was 12% unemployment. It's a bit of a ARD time for, for the uk be it that, you know, I'm, I'm a sort of Thatcher boy made good in, in looking back. But anyway, there were no jobs. So I, I, um, it was the youth training scheme, the YTS scheme, which was a, you know, a, a government punted employment thing for, for kids like me.
My mate always [00:04:00] wanted to be a mechanic Simon. So he took the one for the Fiat garage to be a mechanic. And there was one next to it for the parts department. And I thought, well, I'm gonna go with him, you know, be it, be a laugh if we could go together. And we went, both, went for interviews, cannons, be it dealership on Copp Road, could walk there from my house, which I thought was handy.
Portsmouth. Portsmouth.
[00:04:20] Neil (2): Oh.
[00:04:21] Neil: And uh, off I went and got the job and four days in the parts department with my little micro fish and my oil filters and my air filters for fiat 1, 2, 8. And he was a mechanic. But anyway, it gave me 25 pounds a week. And a lifelong love, love of cars. I understand. I always had a love of cars, you know, I was, I was, and I do still have a love of cars.
And that was more from, you know, age 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years old with the top Trumps cards, you know, so I, I'm a car guy. I. And, uh, anyway, so it was nice that it was, you got a bit of money for my petrol, for my Yamaha fizzy [00:05:00] motorbike that I had. I was in a band at the time. So you're still living the life in 1983.
The life, you're a band, you've got a
[00:05:06] James: motorbike. I had a night job
[00:05:08] Neil: cleaning toilets, 25 qui a night, another two jobs. I had another job cleaning toilets at IBM. Right. Which was more than the 25 quid. 'cause I needed a new keyboard.
[00:05:18] James: May I ask, what state did
[00:05:19] Neil: they leave the toilets in? IB It was all super clean.
It was always clean. It, we basically used to sort of mess around Really? For two hours. So you
[00:05:25] James: didn't find
[00:05:26] Neil: them in dis No, no, no. It was all, it was, it was always an, an interesting inside. It was all quite posh. And seeing those IBM was the Portsmouth, was the headquarters of IBM at the time, and suddenly saw this insight of these posh offices and posh toilets and, you know, all these lovely, you know, workspace that I didn't know really existed.
And I got my keyboard, actually, I bought my keyboard from a band. Um, so yeah, that was my first year really. I loved that job. I loved the job in the Fiat garage. You know, I was talking to people front, the front desk, selling parts for [00:06:00] Rusty Fiats. 'cause they'd sort of used to rust in about two years back in those days.
Right. And then all of the camaraderie. So you were selling mechanic parts, not cars. I was selling parts, yeah. And what did that teach you about sales? Well, I've always been a good talker. It's about the only thing I'm good at, probably. But I, so, and I like people, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm curious and I enjoy other people's company and it was nice to be as part of a gang, you know, with the, with the mechanics or with the sales guys.
It was the launch of the U Uno in 83. Yes. Bit too much information probably, but you know, was
[00:06:37] James: doo No, I remember it. Not a big car, but a popular one.
[00:06:39] Neil: European Car of the Year. Was it? Yeah. Right. So, and those, I can see why people
[00:06:44] James: bought stuff off you. I
[00:06:45] Neil: remember, I remember arriving the first day into the, my first day in the job, there's a PX one nine final edition in Burgundy in one end, and then the four door room.
Now at the other end, I thought, oh, this is, this is magic. [00:07:00] I'm, I'm actually, work is so much nicer than school much. What is it about work that's nicer than school? Well, you get money. Yeah. Which is nice. Um, you, for me anyway, maybe I'm, because I'm not academic, I suppose so I'm, I'm a look at it from one end of a telescope, aren't I?
But it, it, it felt like progress. I, I could s you know, I always knew that I want, I knew that I wanted to be something. I just didn't know what it was. I was quite materialistic, so I liked money. And I was willing to You're saying that in the past tense? No, I still love money. I think anyone that says they don't is sort of lying.
Yeah. Um, so you still like money? Yeah, I still like money, but I think, I think I always felt that I could do something or be something or achieve, you know, stuff, but I didn't know what that looked [00:08:00] like and being stuck in, you know, not to say I, you know, all my family is still in Portsmouth. I don't, you know, I knew I sort of needed to, to skate Portsmouth probably, but, so I, I like work.
I don't, I don't think you should see work shouldn't be a negative, you know? It's part of life. There's, you haven't got life and then work work is just like a really great structural part of your life. Really.
[00:08:24] James: I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think that's something that somehow gets missed quite a lot these days when people talk about work life balances.
If work is, I don't think there's such a thing
[00:08:32] Neil: really. You don't think there's such a thing. You've got to enjoy work. I agree. I see work as positive. Not just because of money or, you know, materialistic things or, but I think being around people, the social gymnasium of work, I think is, is critical for one's mental health as well as everything else.
[00:08:50] James: There seems to be a mounting body of evidence to support that. And it's interesting now with people sort of preferring hybrid work or remote work. Mm. Whether that's [00:09:00] in their long run interest or in their organizations, and there's a sort of tension around that. I think
[00:09:06] Neil: we have to be really, really, really careful Not to, particularly for young people, when you're learning, when you're that sponge of, you need to learn from other people that the work environment is, is critical.
I've got the whole, you know, a DHD thing, so I, you know, I, I, I find it hard to focus on anything. The perfect job for me, looking back, was always gonna be a CEO's job because I was never, I'm never, ever, ever scared of responsibility. I've always sort of wanted to be the boss, frankly. And my job really is to sort of, you know, nudge people along.
[00:09:42] James: But how'd you do that? How, how'd you go from sort of entry level job to CEO? Well, tell us this story because you went, I'll tell you story. You left theater and you went somewhere else, did you? No. What
[00:09:51] Neil: happened was, I was 25 quid a week. I finished my, I finished my thing. Uh, but in between my house I lived on Coppler Road and the Fiat Garage was at the [00:10:00] other end of the street.
Halfway along the street was a hardware shop, right. With Amberley stores. And I saw a little job advertised on that window and it was 40 pounds a week. So I thought, okay, well I'm gonna go and apply for that 'cause whatever that is, you know, 40% pay rise. Um, went in and spoke to Jean that ran the shop and I got the job in there.
And that was basically a sort of open all hours job. Right. So I cut keys. I delivered paraffin to lovely old ladies gas bottles, had my little Honda Company car, the little van, you know, with the little flip downside. Um, yeah. Selling, you know, the Ronnie Cor, the Ronnie Corbit sketch based people who can't
[00:10:41] James: see you're smiling.
You obviously really
[00:10:42] Neil: enjoyed this job. No, I, I just adored that job. It was like, it was the two Ronnie happy memories of that job. It was the two runny sketch, you know, got any o got any o's it was that job. It was wonderful. And I did that for about a year and a half, but I sm smell of paraffin. Right.
'cause, you know, the paraffin heater was a big, was a big [00:11:00] thing then. So I delivered 20, 30 liters of paraffin a day. And my, my mates on a Friday night, Saturday night, say, may you know, you stink a parat. Right. So I thought, oh, this is not really a long-term job. Really. Right. That put running of parat. Yeah.
And my mate had just come out of the army, John, and he had a, he was a salesman in the Burtons department in Debenham, south Sea. And he said, actually, it's a job. Do you, why don't you come down? And Portsmouth in the eighties, it still is like, this was very much the ma the, the men were the peacocks, you know, the colored feathers we always dress up, you know, took a lot of interest in how we look.
That's a Portsmouth thing, is it? Nothing? Well, I think it's an ev it's a thing, isn't it? I, not to, but it's interesting. Yeah. But it's a Portsmouth thing and um, so I always look smart, you know, I always spent all my money on clothes. We'd always go to Brighton or go to London and borrow some money off your [00:12:00] mom and get the new, new man Jean jacket or whatever.
So I went for the interview at Principals for Men in Debenhams of South Sea, right? With a manager called Sean Zel. And I got the job as a sales salesman, right. And I never, the principles for men, the principles for men doesn't exist anymore. And, um, I never looked back. I thought that was just, I just discovered the place where.
If I was nice to people and charming and good at talking and helpful, I was suddenly really good at something. So what were you selling? Selling suits. Suits and, and shoes and clothes and socks and gloves and jumpers. Right. And I suddenly became, my God, who's this guy that can sort of rattle on all day.
Yeah. And, um, so you were making a lot of sales. So you got notice,
[00:12:53] James: did you I
[00:12:54] Neil: got notice. Uh, I, I was then offered the job as the manager of the Principals for men [00:13:00] department in Guilford. Right. So drive up and down the A three. So what age are you at this point? I was at 19, 18. So young, huh? Yeah, 19. I saw a job in Guilford.
I applied for that. So you're a manager of a store in Guilford at 19 inside the Debenhams. Okay. So it was a concession. Right. And then one of the big things, and I think we've all got a story about the one person that helped us, right? Everyone's got that story, but this was 88. Eight, seven. And Ralph Halpin, who was the chief executive for the Burton Group, a real, you know, big, big, big retail dude, lived in East Ley, lived near Guilford and would visit the Debenhams on a Saturday.
Debenhams was part of that group. It was part of the group then. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, he came in and my, my, my, um, everyone was, oh my God, there's Ralph Halpin, you know, no one would spoke to. And I thought, this is my moment, right? So he comes in, you are there, and you see him. He comes in and I'm like, hello sir, lovely to meet you.
Shook his hand and off I went, you know, told him everything that I'd done and how I'd turned the [00:14:00] business around and I was up 25% and I did this. And I did. Oh, probably quite pleased to hear this. And he was like, right. You know, what do you want? You know, what do you want to do with you? And I'm like, I, you know, I just want to be the biggest store manager and I want be an area manager and I want to learn more.
I'm curious. I'm happy to learn, develop. I don't really care about my salary. I just want to get on. And his advice was, move to London. Move to London. That's where the big jobs are in retail. So I went home and said to my mum, I've just been told by Ralph Halpin, I need to move to London, so I'm gonna move to London.
She's like, great, you need to move to London. Yeah, let's do it. Right. So I applied for the first job that I saw. This was before email. So he He wasn't offering you a job? No, no, no. He just said, you know, you should think about moving to London. Yeah. But the message was, go where the action is. Go where the action is.
And I saw wool store manager wool. I didn't even know where wool was. It was a bit hairy at 88 Wool. And I remember. And um, so I applied for the [00:15:00] job, got the job. Obviously no one else applied. I was the only applicant. 9,750 pounds a year. I remember my alpha letter and my mom drove me up in a little Ford Escort Mark one, right.
PCR 92 4 M number play. With an M number. Playing myself. Yeah. M no, 74. Yeah. Four door escort, rare car actually. Oh it is. And then, um, got a little bed sitting and plumstead and off I went and I worked my absolute heart out in that store and I, I, I stood out. I was the best performing store. What were you selling?
What were there? It was Principles for Men. Oh, right. But it was a proper shop with peas and shutter. So you shut did the till at the end of the day and all of that. All of that. And all of the staff was, it was like a worst. It was the worst store in the company. 8% stock class. Terrible sales loss making stock loss being theft is theft.
All the staff were nicking basically. Right. So I got rid of all the staff, caught them [00:16:00] stealing, used to go home and then come back an hour later. And there was the assistant manager with the shutter up, nicking suits and Really, so I got, got, this is pretty tough stuff. Got
[00:16:09] James: him Woolwich 1988. What? You had to dismiss everyone.
Yep. And you are how old? I was 19. 19. So you're learning
[00:16:18] Neil: a lot about
[00:16:18] James: business the hard way. That sounds to me.
[00:16:21] Neil: But I was, you know, I, I love that job. I used to get 'em at seven in the morning, do my own visual merchandising, check everything, you know, do my stop, take, drive, head office mad, ring them up at nine o'clock straight away.
I need more jumpers, I need more suits, I need this, I need that. And there was a ma, there was a guy called Steve Robinson that was the managing director. Very close friend of Ralph's, came and visited on a Saturday, right. I saw him, stood outside and went straight out. You know, I was, had my blazer on and my, you know, I, I looked the, the business and I said, oh, Steve, it's lovely to see it.
I said, I've come to see how have you been doing [00:17:00] this? You know, why is the store 30% up and why is the, you know, the profitability double. And so off I went again.
[00:17:08] James: But what is the answer to that question? Work hard. Work hard. That's what you were doing.
[00:17:12] Neil: Yeah, basically. It's that simple. There's nothing much, there's not very much comp.
I mean, you sort of obviously can't be, but you weren't
[00:17:18] James: displaying the suits in a more creative way or,
[00:17:20] Neil: well, I was do. I was, yeah, I was. I was, you know, pricing it differently. Yeah. No, no, no. I wasn't, I wasn't doing that. You couldn't do that, I suppose. No, but I, you know, I've recruited a good team, a good team of three or four people that I trusted.
I was, you know, hopefully quite motivating. I was. All the things you are as a store manager, you know, I think work hard, work hard as long as, you know, as long as you've got half decent brain and hard work, it sort of pays off in the end.
[00:17:49] James: But, but recruiting a good team that you trusted is, for me, a big bell ringing.
How important that is. 'cause you can't do it all by yourself.
[00:17:56] Neil: No, you can't do it all by, I, I sort of tried to at that, there's a very small [00:18:00] store. It was next door to the first ever McDonald's in United Kingdom. I always remember that there was a little plaque.
[00:18:07] James: Woolwich. It's the first ever, it was the, the first ever McDonald's.
First
[00:18:09] Neil: ever McDonald's. Yeah.
[00:18:10] James: But you are still your
[00:18:11] Neil: arrival There was
[00:18:12] James: sometime after
[00:18:13] Neil: the first ever McDonald's. Yeah, I think it was 83 or something. Right. So I was then, I was then promoted to the biggest store in the company in, in Bromley. Right. So I suddenly at age 20 was the, so it was a big change. Was the, was the, so how many people were working for you in Bromley 25 30.
Right. Yeah. And, um, yeah, so I, I, I really did have quite a vast move. So you went
[00:18:37] James: from boutique to big store in two and a half years. Yeah. Right. You're still very young. You're managing a lot more people.
[00:18:44] Neil: Yeah.
[00:18:46] James: How did that go
[00:18:47] Neil: Bromley? Um, good. Actually, you know, I was, I was a bit of, I, I, Bromley became, there were three stores that were the biggest Liverpool Marble Arch and Bromley.
And Croydon was about number [00:19:00] four. I. So we were all fighting. The only time Liverpool ever beat me was really Christmas week when the, when the Christmas money gets paid out in Liverpool. You know, it was a bit of a, their last minute Christmas shoppers there. Well, they, no, they, they have, they have, um, they collect money for Christmas in cash.
Oh. The savings and then, and then the savings then gets paid out. And Liverpool only ever beat me on Christmas week. Apart from that, I was always the number one, I love winning, basically. Right. So I'm, I'm obsessed with winning. So this is, what year are we talking about? This is 19 90, 89. 90 And of Kent was real.
So 35 years
[00:19:36] James: later, you can still remember you beat Liverpool. Yeah. Every week except Christmas week. Yeah, definitely a hundred percent.
[00:19:42] Neil: But you know, I like that Ken Kent in 88 was BoomTown, you know, it was, there was city money. I was selling 20 because there
[00:19:52] James: a big bang in the city. Oh. I was 20
[00:19:55] Neil: salon suits on a Saturday.
Right. You know, me and the team, I. It [00:20:00] still almost 4 million pounds of turnover in 88 in a men's wear store in Bromley. I mean, I bet that doesn't exist now.
[00:20:06] James: No, no. So you were doing really well in the Burton. I, I remember there was an ad, wasn't there a a a promotion bags more buzz at Burtons or say There was, was when was that principal?
[00:20:17] Neil: Prince Men was the posh bit of the Burton group. Really? We looked down on Burton's a little bit. Okay. But obviously that we don't exist. I won't tarnish you with that didn't exist anymore. So, and then I was, then I was made a, um, an area manager. So I was in charge of 20 stores and then Steve Robinson and also a friend called Paul Sweetener, who was very, very important to my career.
Sort of saw the fact that I had this ability to connect people and I would, there was, there was a job sort of created for me called Branch Merchandiser. So I was, then I got my first company, car Reno five, turbo. Age 21. Right. G Reg. Um, love that car. Navy blue, [00:21:00] gorgeous thing. And I used to bomb around the United Kingdom visiting all of our stores, right?
Two, three times a week. And then I would be in head office. So I had this, you know, I suddenly become a head office person on Oxford Street. Yes. And I would connect the stores to head office, which I'm still a big believer in. I I drive everyone mad a little bit at Kurt Geiger saying, you know, the answers are in the shops, not in the answers are in the shops, not in the spreadsheets, or certainly not all that.
Not all, not all the others. Get out there, get out there, listen, talk to, to the staff, talk to the managers. They know all the answers. They know why the, the shoes aren't fitting or, or, you know, whatever the issues are. You normally discover the answers in the, the problems are in the spreadsheet, the answers are in the stores, right?
So I had this job where I was connecting store performance to head office. And, um, yeah, that was a, that was a lovely [00:22:00] job. I love that job.
[00:22:02] James: So, so you were obviously progressing well in the Burton group. Mm-hmm. And then at some point in the mid nineties Yeah. You moved to Kurt Geer?
[00:22:11] Neil: No, what happened was, I would then, I was then made head of merchandising and logistics at Champion Sport.
Ah, okay. Because Steve Robinson, who was this guy who was outside my shop in wool, he was made CEO of Champion Sport. I went with him. My friend Paul, the three of us went with him and we, we, we did a big transformation project at Champion Sport for a while, and then they sold that business to Olympus Sports.
Right. None of these things exist anymore. And I was offered either 17,000 pound redundancy or a job back in the Burton Group Right. As a merchandise or a planner. I was with my now wife, girlfriend. Emma, we were living in London and I took the 17 grand and I went round the world for two years. Oh. Because I always wanted to travel.
I [00:23:00] always want, I was curious about seeing the world and you know, I'd been to Benor with my mom, you know, on Dan Air or whatever, but I hadn't really, hadn't really seen anything. So you went for two years? I went for years. I went to Trail Finders in Kensington High Street and bought one of those round the world tickets, you know?
Yeah. And, uh, went round the world for two years. Maybe a better human being came back. How did it make you a better human being? I just think that the more you see of the world, the more, the more diversity you see in country's human race, how lucky you are. Frankly, it's, you know, you spend two months traveling from East Timor in Indonesia, right the way around to Sumatra in buses and canoes, and you realize how lucky you are.
[00:23:49] James: Yes.
[00:23:50] Neil: How fortunate we are to live in this great country. You know, the opportunities we've got and whatever. So I think it took the edge off me. I was probably a bit of a, [00:24:00] I don't think I was an awful person at all, but I probably was a bit too sharp elbowed. Right. So I think it calmed me down a little bit.
Maybe.
[00:24:09] James: So we're talking 30 years ago. You are now the CEO of Kurt guy. I am, yeah. What was that first job you did at Kurt? Guy? Head of retail. Head of re So it was quite a senior job. Yeah.
[00:24:20] Neil (3): Yeah. Well, I was quite a senior person. Well,
[00:24:23] Neil: on my CV anyway.
[00:24:24] Neil (3): Well,
[00:24:25] James: you've been away for two years. I might have questioned you about that.
No, but I'm, I'm bloody good
[00:24:29] Neil: at an
[00:24:29] James: interview. Clearly, clearly I'm not disputing it. So you, you got this job head of retail. Yeah. Um, and what were your responsibilities? All of the stores.
[00:24:39] Neil: So we, we were How many stores did you have? We were, um, the business was owned by Herod's actually. So was it. We, we, and we still, we still run the shoe business in Herod's and now, and we had about, lets say 10 stores.
And we were running the shoe business in Herod's, and we had a little business itself, which is much bigger business today. We've [00:25:00] developed that. So, um, I worked for this, um, wonderful guy who interviewed me, called Philip Watson, who was like a real brilliantly charming, handsome shoe dog, looked like, um, Frank Sinatra, right?
And I thought, hi, this is, you know, this is wonderful. And I can, you know, my job is going into the shoe department in Herods and Selfridges and these Kurt Geiger stores that were quite posh and lovely. And of course I was, I needed a job anyway, so it was, you know, I think whatever job I was offered, I would've probably taken, you know, as long as it was a decent salary.
I got my little company car, got my little Rover two 20, so I was, I was happy. But yeah, no, so, so no, this is a big part of
[00:25:41] James: your job of getting out on the road visiting Shark. I love,
[00:25:45] Neil: um, listening
[00:25:45] James: to what people have to say in the store. I
[00:25:47] Neil: was very lucky to be invited. This was a bit of a random thing to say to the, um, celebration of Sterling Moss's life at Westminster Abbey last year.
It's a bit of a random thing to say. [00:26:00] And on the, you know, the little book you get as a, as a celebration of his life, I'm sure there's a posh word for it, you know, in the church sort of thing. That piece of paper, his quote was, uh, movement is tranquility, right? And I thought, that's really lovely for someone like myself that struggles with my attention span, but I've got a ton of energy and you could, you know, you know the A DHD thing and I've got dyslexia and all of that stuff.
I struggle to concentrate and stay still. So, right. The positive of that is I love doing stuff. Moving. Yeah. Traveling, meeting new people. I'm curious and open for, you know, learning and therefore zooming, abound at a, around a million miles an hour suits me down to the ground, particularly if I'm being paid for it.
[00:26:57] James: And what a contrast that is with sitting in a library [00:27:00] and studying a book at school or something. It's sort of, it shows, I always struggled with it, you know, I,
[00:27:05] Neil: I was looking out the window, to be honest. Yes. And my son, my son's dyslexic and I see in him, I didn't know I formally had dyslexia until basically, you know, Vincent, who's my son was diagnosed, you know, age 12, you know, yes.
My kids are at Pasha school and you know, my wife is much more attentive than maybe my mom was. About stuff. Yes. So, you know, we spotted it in him and it spotted in him. I'm like, well actually I've got, you know, I like, I'm like that. Yeah. I've got the, the biggest collection of car books that the first page has been read.
You know, the little corner has been turned on the first page and yeah. I like pictures, book sellers. Love people like you, I guess.
[00:27:45] Neil (2): Yeah.
[00:27:46] Neil: But I never read anything at work really. Right. I don't read the sales reports. Really? Or the, I just, so how do you get the
[00:27:52] James: information? Talking? Listening to people? Yeah.
Yeah. Talking and listening. Mm-hmm. I think that's a big feature of business leaders
[00:27:59] Neil: [00:28:00] that I've met. I think. I think, I don't know, but I think for me, dyslexia is a superpower now. I mean, it was incredibly frustrating and in, in, in, at school, but, 'cause I don't look down, oh, this is my little story or my com, I'm never looking down and reading stuff.
I'm always looking up, I'm always, you know, looking in people's eyes and listening. You mean physically, physically. Yeah. So I think I'm, I'm, I'm a better judge of people than some, 'cause I take, I put more effort into trying to study human beings than I do spreadsheets or words.
[00:28:36] James: Very interesting because so many meetings now, there's a lot of people sitting around the table with a computer screen or a laptop, or, I
[00:28:41] Neil: don't
[00:28:41] James: look
[00:28:41] Neil: at any of it.
[00:28:42] James: You don't look at any of it. No. You look at them.
[00:28:44] Neil (2): Mm-hmm.
[00:28:46] Neil: And you learn, Hmm. Just by looking. And you know, if you are, if you are, if you are the store manager in wool and you half your staff are nicking, and then the customers are sometimes threatening you with a syringe of blood for a leather jacket, you [00:29:00] know, in a T eight when the whole, you know, age that Yeah.
Wow. You know, you, you, you, um, you get to understand the human race and the good ones and the bad ones. You end up being quite a good judge of character, I think. Yeah. In life with experience really, don't you?
[00:29:17] James: So you've accumulated, I mean, with your working and, and. Getting these responsibilities at a very young age and then traveling.
Mm-hmm. And then working again in sort of multi-store locations. Mm-hmm. You've learned a lot about people.
[00:29:32] Neil: I adore people. All of them. Yeah. In general. Yeah. I think 95% of human beings, you adore people a very decent, yeah. Very. So talk me through that. What, what, what, what, what do you like about them especially?
Well, I think I, I find them as my fuel really. My energy, you know, I can't work in isolation. I can't work on that's, well, I can't work, you can't really work from home as a CEO really anyway, can you? No, I agree with that. And, um, thank God some [00:30:00]
[00:30:00] James: visible CEO working, you know, that would
[00:30:02] Neil: be setting a good example.
I think it's ridiculous, frankly, but the, um, my, my motivation, energy, my learning comes from engaging and working with people. 'cause people find the solutions, not computers or spreadsheets, you know?
[00:30:20] James: No, quite. So this whole sort of emergence of ai, you see how, I really know really that's not,
[00:30:28] Neil: I'm not clever enough to answer that question.
Um, I mean, I dunno. I mean, clearly it is helpful and we, we are attempting to, you know, use it. And I don't want to sort of sound like an old dinosaur, but at the end of the day, it's people, people make the difference in, in my, in my view, you know? Yeah. I remember we had to spend 3 million pounds moving head office in October 99 because the world was going to end with Y 2K.
I remember a millennium bug. Oh, it's gonna be, you [00:31:00] know, awful. And we spent, we had to move. You moved office, we had moved offices, we bought all new computers. Everything was going to, we took it really seriously. No, because it was, it wasn't me. It was, you know, the, the Herod's IT department and everyone was.
I think, I think in the end, you know, people, people are the most important thing. Yeah. Not, not really computers.
[00:31:19] James: Well, if there's any constellation, it was a very good time for it. Recruiters, is it? No, it's course it is. No, look, I mean, our sector was booming briefly for that. My, my
[00:31:29] Neil: daughter works in it and data and you know, it's, yeah, so I look, of course, I, I just, it's not for me and I think, no, I think people are brilliant, really.
I think, and I think it's also for your mental health being surrounded by people. I think that social gymnasium thing of just being engaging and learning and working with other people, I think that's part of the issue of this sort of very difficult post covid [00:32:00] world for young people is that maybe the lack of engagement and it all, you know, messed us up in many different ways, didn't it?
Covid, you know, it was dreadful. I think the more we can get back together, the better. Not just for work and productivity and the economy and all of those things, but also wellbeing.
[00:32:22] James: Yeah. Yeah. So your journey then, at Kurt Gaga, you became CEOI believe, 20 years ago. Was it?
[00:32:30] Neil: Well, I, I, yeah, 2003, but I, I did, I had a little holiday.
I was recruited by Texas Pacific, um, private equity, which is how I got my bluff, bluff away in private equity book. Right. Um, so I went to a couple of years to Switzerland. ILI, I actually went to Bally B shoes and lived in, you know, this what in theory was a, you know, I, you know, I had this amazing three bedroom penthouse on Lake Lagano and Right.
You know, but actually I [00:33:00] had a sort of an iron board and a McDonald's bag, to be honest, you know, it, it looked good from a distance. But my wife was still in Oswell Hill. We had three young kids. Right. But I learned a lot about this, this funny thing called private equity. Right. And, uh, I came back actually to Kurt Geiger.
So I What was,
[00:33:19] James: was that
[00:33:19] Neil: with a private equity? Yeah, it was Texas specific group. So you so you were part of that? Yeah, I was part of that. I was recruited to do that. Um, so you bought the company? I was part of the team that bought, I dealt, parents bought it. I didn't have any money. Money, no, but they needed you.
They, yeah. So I did that job and learned a lot very quickly about that sort of world of, you know, not really leverage, I wouldn't be smart enough to be sort of financey, but sort of energy around growth, I suppose. Yes. And came back to Kurt Geiger and managed, you know, by, by total chance to persuade Barclay's private equity.
Right. They just bought and [00:34:00] sold Hobbs.
[00:34:00] Neil (2): Right.
[00:34:02] Neil: So they were feeling very chipper and, you know, we could maybe repeat this. And persuaded them to help me buy Kurt Geiger. Right? Which I didn't have any money. We had to remortgage our houses 2005, 2 5 2 5 2 0 5, right? And we remortgaged our houses. Two or three of the management team bought the company, um, with their money, 47 million pounds.
And there began our little journey of private equity and, and, um,
[00:34:33] James: your little journey of private, I mean, I should say to our listeners that you've just sold Kurt Geiger again for 289 million pounds. So that's quite a journey. I didn't get
[00:34:43] Neil: all
[00:34:43] James: that unfortunately. No, no. I'm sure you didn't. But that's, but that, but aside from your modesty.
I mean, that does show the value you've added over that 20 year period.
[00:34:52] Neil: Yeah.
[00:34:52] James: In in raw business terms, you've gone from 47 million to 280 million.
[00:34:56] Neil: Well, the journey, if you really want, well, that's very impressive. If you really want ay [00:35:00] measure.
[00:35:00] James: Yeah. Really. So I think we should stress that.
[00:35:01] Neil: Yeah. If you really want the funny little journey, we, we were 3 million EBITDA in 2005 and, uh, Barclays Backers in 2005, and we went 3, 5, 8, 10.
So we sold from Barclays into Graphite private equity 2010. Then we went, this was very good little run. 10, 12, 15, 18, 20 20 million EBITDA in, uh, 11 2011. Sold to an American. Uh, so that was
[00:35:31] James: despite the financial crisis, and actually we, we ignored that affect you. Yeah. No ignored that. We ignored, we you didn't bother reading that spreadsheet.
Just carried on. Did We did read that
[00:35:42] Neil: newspaper.
[00:35:43] Neil (3): Yeah. Very good. And then not
[00:35:44] James: reading
[00:35:44] Neil (3): stuff, I'm helpful. Yeah, yeah, you did. Don't get distracted. No, exactly. Yeah. So you carried on. And then, although I
[00:35:50] Neil: do read the Financial Times, but the, then we went, uh, 2020, we were one year of non-growth in 2012, [00:36:00] and then 20, 23, 25, 28, 30, 30 million EBITDA in 15.
And then we, um, actually the, the, the American corporate we were with were bought out by private equity. Right. So we were back
[00:36:15] James: into
[00:36:15] Neil: private
[00:36:15] James: equity. So you've changed hands several times on this journey. So,
[00:36:18] Neil: but we bought our equity back and then we went, um, and we then sold to syn, private equity American, uh, British, really great British private equity firm, just around the corner of here in St.
Paul's. Then we went 30, 32, 34. Bit of a couple of years though, 35, 38, 41 EBITDA to 400 million of sales from where we started at 50 and then Covid. Right. So we were for sale in 2019, right? Right in the middle of Covid. I was in Hong Kong actually when Covid kicked off. You know, my wife texted me, you need to get back, you know, Italy's closed and [00:37:00] all of that drama was just beginning and it was like a game of snakes and ladders.
So we went from 41 to six. Yeah, 20, 21. You know, stores closed all of that. Warehouse closed drama. Then we've just spent the last four years going 6, 20, 30, 40, and now we're beyond 40. So you're closer to 50. Yeah.
[00:37:24] James: You're powering ahead once again. Yeah. So those are the numbers. I mean, look, a lot of hard work, as you said earlier, went into that behind the numbers.
What were the sort of three main things you did to grow the business like that? Internationalization,
[00:37:42] Neil: which markets us Right. And the elasticity of our brand into handbag. Right. If you said, well, they're the two things, I could list you 10, but the two
[00:37:55] James: moving into handbags and going into national.
[00:37:57] Neil: Yeah. And we're now, uh, we, we are, we're a [00:38:00] bigger handbag business than we are shoe business.
Right. And we're bigger in America than we are in the uk.
[00:38:07] James: So you say you could name 10, but those are the two big levers. Yeah. And, and often that's the case, isn't it? The, that's why I said two or three things.
[00:38:15] Neil: Yeah. Yeah. We did lots of things, you know, Europe margins, um, more categories, more stores, new store concepts.
You must have opened a lot of stores. Well, we actually, we opened a lot of stores from 2005 to 15. And what about going online? UK Yeah, online now is 40% of the business. Yeah. So that would be a big change over that period as well. Well, big change. Big change. So, um, yeah, we, you know, we, we, we, we worked hard and got lucky and, um, thought hard about what our girl and boy wants from [00:39:00] us as a brand.
[00:39:01] Neil (2): Right.
[00:39:03] Neil: What, what is that? What, how
[00:39:04] James: would you encapsulate that? Well, from
[00:39:05] Neil: a, from a, and the, the Kurt Geiger brand has a, has a, a real distinctive design attribute. We're really good at color, basically. Again, if you wanna distill my answer into one point, we're really good at color and we're really good at value.
So, you know, a handbag from us would be 200 pounds, 250 pounds in leather and distinctive in as much as you can't go and buy another handbag that really looks like that. We, we, we put color together just like your room that I'm in here. I'm glad you approve of it. We put color together very well and we've got lucky that some of our competitors at our price point got weaker through that period.
And of course we, you know, we've moved into their space a little bit, but
[00:39:59] James: I. We, [00:40:00] we've, um, why'd, why do you think they got weaker while you got stronger?
[00:40:03] Neil: Well, I think we can all get, you know, I'm super paranoid again, being weaker myself.
[00:40:09] James: Yeah. So what, so what'd you look out for?
[00:40:13] Neil: Everything. I really struggle with contentment and happiness.
Contentment. Yeah. I mean, I'm a happy individual. I hope that portrays itself. Yeah. Yeah. You don't seem, I'm unhappy to, but I'm never, I'm never So you're discontent. I'm never really content. No. It's got sometimes frustrating. I think for my, well you, for my wife actually. You don't more than pick out.
[00:40:36] James: I was just thinking that might be the case, but, but you know, I'm sort of happy.
I'm glad you said
[00:40:39] Neil: it. I'm sort of happy but frustrated. Yeah. If that can be such a thing or, or I'm, I'm, I'm just, I could, I could frame it in ambition, but, but your,
[00:40:49] James: the sort of basis of your discontent is, you could see that things could always be improved. Always.
[00:40:54] Neil: I'm, I'm always, I'm quite a pain. For my team [00:41:00] sometimes, because I'm, I'm And you still visit the stores a lot?
Oh, God, most days.
[00:41:05] James: Most days.
[00:41:06] Neil: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, and you'll come back and say, why are we doing this? Or what's happening with that? Constantly, honestly, constantly. That's good. I mean, constantly. I'm a, I'm a right pain, but I think that's the nature of my job really. You can't ever really, you can't ever really kick back and say, we've done it.
It's fantastic. We've nailed it. Can you, you can't. You just, I think
[00:41:33] James: complacency's a killer. He really can't. I, I, the end,
[00:41:36] Neil: I mean, I couldn't spell it anyway, but the, the, um, no, I don't do complacency. I'd rather, I'd rather, I'd rather resign and leave my job if I ever got a level of complacency.
[00:41:49] James: Yeah. Although you've, you've sold the company once again very successfully.
Mm. As I said, for 280 I million to a new owner. You are not, you are carrying on, aren't you? I think it's important to stress [00:42:00] that and, and you, it's, you clearly love the work you're doing.
[00:42:04] Neil: No, it's not one flow of the cookie's nest. Really? Don't say that. You, you're allowed to leave, but you don't, you know,
[00:42:10] James: allowed to leave.
What? You don't. I like that.
[00:42:12] Neil: No, I think I, I love my, I love my job. I bounce outta bed at 5:00 AM You get up at 5:00 AM I'd get up at 5:00 AM Yeah. I go to bed at nine though.
[00:42:24] James: Yeah. I was thinking you need to, I think
[00:42:26] Neil: sleep is really important. If you want to do, I can give you a little list of what's important, but sleep certainly is.
Yeah. Give
[00:42:31] James: us a little list of what's important,
[00:42:33] Neil: a social contact meeting new people. Um, good sleep. Yeah. You know, they say bad sleep is equivalent of smoking. Right. Six hours minimum. Um, I don't drink. I don't think, how cold was that? You know, I clearly, I drank as a young person, but, but you stopped at some point.
I'm a bit scarred by it. My, my father was, I think an alcoholic and died very [00:43:00] young. So I've sort of got, I've got a, you know, a, a black mark against alcohol generally. Yes. I think we've all, if we've got experience of alcohol negatively in families, I think you, you, you carry that with you a little bit. Yes.
And I think that, you know, that, that moment in my life, age four probably. And they, you know, when you sit down on the psychiatrist bench that you have to do, every time you're bought by a private equity company, they then sort of grill you for a couple of days to make sure you're not mad or a psychopath or something, do they?
I didn't know that. Yeah, no, you get put through this whole sort of psychometric testing. It's a bit like James Bond reapplying for his job, all that at the beginning of every movie, all that. No, all of that. Really? Yeah. And I'm always told that, you know, what happened very early in my life is a big, big impact, which actually is a big impact.
You lose a parent losing your father or four Must be, yeah. Yeah. You lose a parent
[00:43:51] James: very young. Do you have any recollection of him?
[00:43:53] Neil: Uh, tiny little flashes of almost like, I dunno [00:44:00] whether it's real or I've seen the photograph. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. You've seen the photograph with you, with him.
Mm-hmm. And you don't know whether you remember that moment or whether you remember the photographs? A bit weird that, yeah. So I think I've, I suppose part of that, not to get too deep in what should be a very sort of positive podcast, um, that's very important part of person's development then age that, well, I think it really is an important part of my energy and drive for.
I suppose proving myself to someone that's not here, maybe, right. Not as if I'm, you know, I'm, I'm talking on my feet now. I haven't really talked about No, no, but that's
[00:44:42] James: sort of, this comes up when you've done these sort of reviews. It Oh, it
[00:44:45] Neil: does? Yes. Oh, you know, oh, you lost a parent. Oh, now we know you don't say that.
It's a bit of that. Well, there is
[00:44:51] James: a high correlation between people who are very successful in, in life and the tragic loss of a parent.
[00:44:57] Neil: Yeah. No. Well, I hope my kids don't experience that. [00:45:00] Yeah, no, so do I. You know what I mean? But,
[00:45:02] James: but it is, it is a cyber, maybe it's, you said something earlier that really struck me, and it's maybe tides, this, that you, you're looking for responsibility.
Mm-hmm. Maybe it's related, but you, you like responsibility. I love that you seek it out. I al and that's not, that's not, that's not necessarily commonplace. I thought that was very interesting when you said that. But what also struck me is how much you enjoyed it. You know, maybe more people should be of that.
Frame of mind and look for responsibility 'cause it might be more enjoyable and rewarding.
[00:45:29] Neil: I always wanted to be the boss, you know, I wa I wasn't, I, I was always a hope astute or emotionally intelligent enough to make my boss look great. I discovered that quite early, that, you know, yeah. To get his or her job you need to really make them look great.
Yeah. So I was never a pain or brought negative energy to any No. Because then they get promoted and you, they get promoted and their job, maybe you get their job. Yeah, exactly. I think that gets missed from lost and that, that, yeah. That's worked for me numerous times [00:46:00] actually. So I've, I've always, I've always, you know, yeah.
I've always wanted to be the boss. I was never scared of that responsibility and frankly, I wanted to make all the bloody decisions.
[00:46:13] James: Right. Right.
[00:46:15] Neil: Which, you know, can be a bit annoying for my team sometimes, and I have to sort of, I. Slow down a bit and let other people do stuff. Are you a big ideas person?
[00:46:25] James: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:28] Neil: Yeah. I think that's part of the dyslexic brain that you see things other people don't often. Yeah. You see solutions, you see, you see opportunities, you think out the box quite naturally think walking around and you know, I spend half of my working week probably in stores looking at other people's stores or other people's brands and other, so I'm work never leaves me, to be honest.
Yeah. But I don't want it to, you know, I'm always thinking, I'm sort of always at work and always not at [00:47:00] work. Yeah. I feel that I'm sort of daydreaming sort of weird. I'm daydreaming and thinking and scheming and it's all part of like ev like unless I'm asleep, basically. Yeah. I'm always skiing. So when you,
[00:47:14] James: when you visit one of your stores and talk to your team.
What's your favorite question?
[00:47:21] Neil: What can we help you with? What can we do better? If you had a magic wand I was in, I was in America last week. We've got five stores in America there, and my question to the teams there is write me a list of what Kurt Geiger could do better. How can we help you do 30% more sales?
Yeah.
[00:47:39] Neil (2): And honestly, you are there and the answers were in the store.
[00:47:42] Neil: Oh my God. You get an hour, you get an hour's stuff.
[00:47:46] Neil (2): Yeah,
[00:47:46] Neil: because people in shops are like me. They love talking.
[00:47:49] James: They're talking to the customers all the time,
[00:47:51] Neil: talking to the customers, and they know our customers better than we do. And, and to say, tell us what you would do if you are, if you are, if you are the [00:48:00] CEO for a day, what would you do?
And, and you'd learn so much. It's magical. And I get paid to do that. I mean, it's a, it's a miracle.
[00:48:09] Neil (2): Yeah. I.
[00:48:11] Neil: It is a miracle. I'm super lucky. You know, super, super lucky.
[00:48:15] James: I, I can see that that's how you feel, but that's really good. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I like asking similar questions and you get so many good ideas and sometimes, well, we
[00:48:24] Neil: don't know all the answers.
Definitely not. And I think, I think it's a real danger. You do come across people that, that, you know, think they know all the answers or their confidence is higher than their ability. They're the dangerous people. Really. You know, you, you need your confidence lower than your ability. Then you, you've got to really be self-critical, consciously incompetent.
You know, you want, you've gotta do that consciously, incompetent. Yeah. Whatever, you know. But I like that. Phrases an interesting phrase. You, you, if, if, if you think you're great, you're probably [00:49:00] not. Yeah. As good as you think you are. I. I'm very self critical. I mean, I'm immensely paranoid and anxious about getting fired.
Right. Always Right. But that makes me try a bit harder, I think. I hope, anyways. But it's worked so far.
[00:49:18] James: It's worked so far. I mean, but you've delivered consistently. Yeah. Good results I suppose. Partly because of that. Yeah, no, yeah. Is that fair there? Yeah.
[00:49:26] Neil: But now, now I've got, we, you know, I really want, we're subscale as a company, if you look at our competitors, right.
We're tiny. So you've got a
[00:49:33] James: long
[00:49:34] Neil: way to go. A long way to go. We could be, we could be 10 times bigger right now, honestly, we could be 10 times bigger. We, we Well that's good,
[00:49:43] James: isn't it? I mean, that gives you a lot of easy to go out. Exactly know we do three or 400
[00:49:46] Neil: million of sales on our Geiger brand. I dunno.
Coach is 6 billion.
[00:49:52] James: Right?
[00:49:52] Neil: As a comparison.
[00:49:54] James: They've been in the US longer, I guess.
[00:49:56] Neil: Of course. So that's great for us. That's a huge market. Yeah. We, we've only been there three [00:50:00] years.
[00:50:00] James: Are there any other huge markets you that you look at? Yes. The
[00:50:02] Neil: whole of Europe. The whole of
[00:50:03] James: Asia. Yeah. Huge market. Yeah. So there's a lot to go at.
Well, that's good news. Yeah. Because you've got a new owner. Yeah. So you've gotta go again. Yeah.
[00:50:12] Neil (2): Yeah.
[00:50:12] James: Excited about it. Yeah. I can see that. Can't bloody
[00:50:15] Neil: wait. I can see that. As soon as this podcast is finished, I'm off. You're back. You're back in the,
[00:50:20] James: well we won't keep you much longer, but I'm interested.
You have done, you have done quite a lot about, um, on the, on the philanthropic side to encourage other young people coming into retailing and fashion. Yep. Talk me through that a bit and what, what you're doing there. But
[00:50:33] Neil: in the middle of Covid, and we've always tried to be a decent company, even though, you know, people would say, oh, private equity must be really nasty and, you know, capitalists, and we wasn't, you know, I'm a big, big fan of private equity and we, we, we were given the ability to run the company how we wanted in a decent way.
In Covid when the company was basically bankrupt. My niece is a, um, nurse at the [00:51:00] Queen Alexandra Hospital in Portsmouth, and we all had our little WhatsApp groups going, didn't we? Yes. Oh my God. You know what's gonna happen? And she was on the front line of it and I remember saying to her, if you need anything, let me know.
Yeah. Um, and she said, well, some handbags would be nice joke. And I thought,
[00:51:19] James: I was just thinking, what are they gonna do with handbags? But then go on joke. No.
[00:51:22] Neil: And I thought, you know, I'm stuck at home. Bloody, Boris had just done that lockdown whenever it was 23rd of April, 2020 or whatever, and I'm right. Wow.
We would drive to our warehouse Kettering pickups, gift cards and drive them to Portsmouth. That'd be nice. And, and, and Kerry can give them out. That's good. Yeah. So I did that that morning. Lockdown day. Still got the photograph. And I just messaged her. Go and have a look behind the hospital sign. There's a bag of gift cards.
Right. Give them out to everyone [00:52:00] who's working in a e
[00:52:01] Neil (2): Yeah.
[00:52:03] Neil: And we put it on our Instagram. Yeah. Company Instagram. 'cause the marketing team, were like, oh, it's amazing. You know, we've got this warehouse full of 250,000 handbags that we can't do anything with, you know?
[00:52:14] James: Yeah.
[00:52:14] Neil: And we thought, right, okay, this is cool.
Let's do that. To every hospital where we've got a store, which we did, we ended up giving away about three or 4 million pounds worth of Kirker shoes and handbags through Covid to the staff in the hospitals. The staff. In the hospitals. That was a great idea. And then we topped up, you know, we, we topped up everyone, all our employees above furlough to their salaries.
We, the, the board gave up our salaries for a year. We did a lot of stuff. Um. Then we thought as it was coming to an end, we thought, you know what? This, our employees love the fact that we were, we went down fighting, we did a lot of positive, how do we keep that [00:53:00] in the company? This sort of kindness thing.
At the same time, we had this amazing handbag, the rainbow handbag that was selling out completely globally. Thank God for America. Didn't close in Covid, therefore, sort of saved the company could still carry on. Yeah, yeah. Carried on. So we, our business was still going. And we said, okay, well why don't we start a charity?
Why don't we, why don't we? So took us a year basically with the charity commission and we set up the Kurt Geiger Foundation and we then said, well, we're gonna link our loyalty scheme to our foundation. So Kurt Geiger the company, so not customers. If you shop with us, we put a pound into our foundation, um, our margin, you know?
Mm-hmm. To, to fund that. And we, the strategy was how do we help? Young people for whatever reason, that they haven't got the ability or contacts or education or geography to break into [00:54:00] the creative industry. So going back to my little journey of the, you know, yes. The youth training scheme and all of that, and the luck I had, and Ralph Halpin and Steve Robinson, there's always one person and all of that.
So we, so we then we put a million pounds into, now it's about 2 million a year we put into the foundation and we started to give away money to other charities that help young people to develop into create industry. Then we got a, a youth council together, uh, some great help from a company called, uh, uh, ag Partners on our strategy for our foundation and.
We sat with a load of young people for about six months every Wednesday afternoon, and they told us about all the challenges they had, whether it be peer pressure, family pressure, neurodiversity, education, dyslexia, um, no family, friends that can give you your, you know, your free job in marketing. [00:55:00] You all these young kids that are so creative that didn't know how to get the posh jobs.
And then we thought, well, okay, well we've got this amazing infrastructure, 300 people in a head office in Farringdon. We've got all the skills of marketing, technology, sales properties, store design, merchandising, finance. We are gonna build a school, so we are gonna educate young people. We're gonna, we're gonna provide a free service.
Which we did. We recruited three teachers. Everyone wanted to work from home at that point. We had a load of spare space in the Hoppi. We built a little come a visit. Actually, I'd like to. Yeah. We built a school in and we, so what do you call it? It's our Kurt Geiger Academy. Right. Um, and we pilot was last year, 22 young people, seven of them ended up getting full-time jobs with us, which is magic.
Now we're up to 50 every [00:56:00] six months. So we, we, we have a, um,
[00:56:03] James: do they get a qualification
[00:56:04] Neil: or apprenticeship? Yeah, it's a, a QA, um, uh, registered and qualified with the government and all of our teams in the office do the education. So it's real hands-on. Right. We can do a whole new pod. A great idea. We can do a new podcast, James, on.
Yeah. Our education system. And now it's not fit for purpose, I think. Yeah. In terms of employing Yes. No, we're quite helping young people get the right jobs. Yeah. So we've got our teams, our senior managers write the, um, curriculums, they do the education, they present to the young people. Every, every young person has a mentor that they've got access to the whole time we provide food, travel, everything.
It's probably the best thing I've ever done. I'd love to come and that It's, yeah, it's really cool actually. Really cool.
[00:56:59] James: And we're [00:57:00] So how many, how many young people are going through that now? 50 every six months. Yeah. So a hundred plus a year. Yeah.
[00:57:06] Neil: And we are using it as one of our great vehicles of recruitment, to be honest.
[00:57:10] James: Right.
[00:57:11] Neil: And you know, I was, I was sat with a young lady called Riko yesterday who sort of sent me an email and said, I'd love to come and talk to you. And we've changed his life. He couldn't even get a job. At the local, um, post office warehouse. He lives out near Oxbridge and he applied for this, found in his job center.
He did the six month thing. He passed. We offered him a full-time job in digital marketing. Right. Not a hope in hell, would've we? We wouldn't have found him. We wouldn't have even knew he existed. Yeah. You know, because, and he wouldn't have found you in the old, and, you know, we, our, our bless our HR team or whatever, you know, we'd be looking for people with degrees that had gone to the good university and actually degrees are fine, [00:58:00] but they're like, they're part of the story.
They're not the whole story, are they? In many respects there. They're not that relevant.
[00:58:09] James: Well, I think a lot of young people are questioning degrees now because you of their potential irrelevance and because of the cost associated three
[00:58:15] Neil: years. Three years, lots of debt. I mean, look, my daughter's got a lovely degree and she had a great time at university and it's fine.
Degrees are okay, but you know, they're not that important. The answer, no, not really. It's about just as much your emotional intelligence and your ability to work with people and your motivation and your energy and your positivity and your, you know, your ambition and lots and lots and lots of things, isn't it?
[00:58:43] James: And that that's what you are able to sort of capture and, and help develop in your academy.
[00:58:48] Neil: Yeah,
[00:58:49] James: yeah, yeah. As well
[00:58:50] Neil: as skills. So you think, do you think more companies should have academies or, I think so. You know, I think so. I think lots of companies do great stuff. Yeah. But I think it's as much hearing a bit more and more, actually, it's as [00:59:00] much about confidence and.
I, I look back at my little job in Portsmouth, Debenhams, I'd never really been to London, as you know, been to Buckingham Palace when you're age nine or whatever with the school. But when I moved to London, I had my little Alpha Rome, Mayo, another car reference I used to drive in from Plumstead into Central London at night and just drive around and see all these posh offices, you know, the Lloyd's building had just been built and the, and Nat West Tower.
And I thought, what do all these people do? I wanna be part of this. Yes. Yeah. You know, I want jobs that these people have got. And I think it's as much for young people now. They see all these, you know, kids that have gone to university that have, you know, got their own lattes and their Apple laptops and they're in little coffee shops doing Zoom calls in, you know, Hoxton or whatever.
I. How'd you get those jobs? Unless you've gone to [01:00:00] the right university or mom or dad has got you a free internship and they've wangled you through the door. I think it's very, very difficult for young people and no one, I don't think you are much smarter just 'cause you've been to university to be honest.
No. Well, I would agree.
[01:00:18] James: But do you think retail is still a good way in for young people? Brilliant way. Brilliant way. You know, you obviously have your academy and you started out like that. Think
[01:00:24] Neil: we and I think we as an industry probably need to do, do, do a better job. And I think the government needs to listen to us more than it does.
You know, I, I think retailers looked down on, would be my judgment. And, and we, we could really be the, the fertilizer, the catalyst for a lot of improvement in the economy, frankly, or productivity or developing young people and getting them off, you know, off a path that maybe is not as positive.
[01:00:54] James: I think Napoleon Bonaparte made that mistake, didn't he?
Sneered at us saying we were a nation of shopkeepers. Yeah, he did. And know what [01:01:00] happened to him. Yeah, exactly. Retailers got history being looked down on and it's actually really, really important. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think there's a lot we
[01:01:07] Neil: can, I think a lot governments can't do everything, can they? I mean, they're basically skin aren't they?
Seem to be.
[01:01:13] James: Yeah.
[01:01:14] Neil: You know, so I think so we've
[01:01:15] James: gotta get on with it, haven't we?
[01:01:16] Neil (3): Yeah. We've gotta get on with it. Yeah. Okay. Neil.
[01:01:19] James: Hey, I, I so enjoyed that listening to your journey and also your inspiring thoughts about how young people can engage now and especially with retail and your wonderful academy, which I'd love to visit.
So, Neil, you, you've been the CEO now for 20 years, and, um, you've got obviously a very long career in retail. What, what sort of characteristics or approaches do you still use today that maybe you used back when you started out, or, um, um, what, what things do you see consistencies, if there are any, in your career in that way?
[01:01:51] Neil: Well, I, I thi. It's really annoying getting old, isn't it? 'cause I don't feel any different apart from when you look in the mirror. [01:02:00] You know, I've, I've got the same sort of bouncy energy as what I had when I was 20 or 30 or 40. But then you look in the mirror, you go, oh, I'm older than I feel, so
[01:02:11] James: maybe
[01:02:12] Neil: you should ditch mirrors that.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. What, what, what the mirrors do. Anyway, that's the point. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, unfortunately, there is no shortcut to heaven is there? It's daily grind is probably the reality, but treating that as a positive thing, treating that consistency of effort and seeing work as a really positive part of your life, that is progress.
Right. And I, I like, I like to think of it as that. It sounds a little bit cheesy to be honest. When I'm, you know, I never share this stuff really. Um. I think I like the, I like routine. I like routine. I like the fact of, you know, I'm predictable, I'm [01:03:00] reliable, if not a little bit of a, you know, maybe a bit boring in a way that I just like nudging along.
Getting a tiny little bit better every day, I think is, you know, is something that, I dunno where that came from. Um, you know, my mother and father were quite different human beings. My mother was a bit of an entrepreneur. She had a shop. She was, you know, the, she had the gift of the game. She was a good talker.
She was always, you know, she was always up for anything where my, my father was quite a sort of, not as if, you know, as you know, I, I didn't know him, but talking to my, mm-hmm. I've got three older brothers, so, you know, I learned about him through them. He was quite a sort of consistent, hardworking, predictable guy.
Maybe I was lucky enough to get both of the positives from my mother and father into a cocktail [01:04:00] that sort of worked.
[01:04:01] James: Yeah, and that's, you continue to deploy that cocktail. That's the right way. I think putting it, I think
[01:04:06] Neil: there's, there's no replacement unfortunately for consistent hard work and a positive attitude of progress and seeing work as a really important, positive part of your life.
[01:04:23] James: I'm so pleased you say that, but I think work needs a bit of pr of its own really. It does these days, so many people sort of,
[01:04:30] Neil: I'm sort of, sometimes I'm a bit embarrassed 'cause it sounds a bit too cheesy. Now I'm this sort of so-called CE Oy person, but I'm, no, I'm no different to the, you know, the toilet cleaner, to be honest.
You know, I love, I love that job in the Fit garage. I love that job in the hardware shop. I love. Delivering powerfully into old ladies and having a little nater and a cup of tea. You know, I love selling suits in Bromley on a Saturday afternoon. I saw it as [01:05:00] a, a force of good work. And someone said to me yesterday, actually, which is a bit funny, you, you, you, you get progress in life with three things.
I'm not sure this is true anyway, but I'm gonna say it and you can use it or cut it out Hard work brains or good looks. Not to say I've, you know, I've, I've probably got one and a half of those, but I think, I think you've, you know, you've got to just face into the wind and get on with stuff and, and, and the power of the individual.
Don't expect anyone else to give you a leg up. You know, the government's not gonna help you. Um, you've gotta help yourself. You know, you've gotta, you know, and I think. Unfortunately, I think we probably lack a little bit of that as a country at the moment, or we could do with a bit more, you know, I'm in America a lot and American can be [01:06:00] bolted for many things, of course.
And I loved, you know, the uk, it's my favorite place in the world. London's the best city in the world, but we do need a bit more energy of self progress that, you know, our economy's flatlining, Europe's flatlining, look at America, the work ethic in America is, is higher. And I think we could, we could look ourselves in the mirror a little bit on that.
Maybe
[01:06:26] James: we need to rediscover that.
[01:06:27] Neil: Yeah, I think, no, I think it was there. But before, we've got an amazing set of attributes, haven't we, of a country creativity. GMT, the legal system, we're trusted as a nation. Um, you know, we don't have loads of oil or gas. We've got to use our people Yeah. To, to, to, to create wealth and our hard work and our ideas and, you know, look at our creative industries, music, art, um, fashion, cinema, fashion, [01:07:00] um, music.
We've got so much on our side actually that we've, you know, I just, I just think we need to wake ourselves up a little bit.
[01:07:11] James: We need to wake ourselves up a little bit.
Yeah. That's a wake up call. That's, you know. Yeah.
[01:07:20] Neil (3): I agree. I think, I think you're right. There were boys. We
[01:07:24] Neil: were, you know, it's a wonderful country. I I, and when people criticize our country, I get very defensive, particularly, you know, people that aren't from our country. It's like, I, I get very defensive about the United Kingdom because it's an amazing place.
We've gotta, we've gotta face into the wind a bit, you know? It's, we've gotta start growing in the economy because otherwise there's no money to help the people that need help.
[01:07:50] James: Well, exactly. So do you think the work ethic has sort of dissipated during the pandemic? I don't, I don't, I don't know. Do, it's a gradual thing.
I'm, I'm not,
[01:07:59] Neil: I'm not [01:08:00] smart enough or deep enough to think about it, but I think if we could, we could, I think we could try a bit harder is my instinct. You know, we, as
[01:08:10] James: a community,
[01:08:10] Neil: we have, yeah, every one of us, the, the nation, we should all try a bit harder. We should all just try a little bit harder. And I think it will all, if just try 10% harder, we'd probably be fine.
I think that's a very,
[01:08:21] James: very good message. Let's all try 10% harder. Everyone listening, I think we'll do better. And you are a great role model for that. Neil.
[01:08:28] Neil: Cheers. I, I need to try harder. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna take that away from this conversation. I'm, I'm very self-critical. I'm, I mean, I'm always very anxious about, you know, what have I delivered today?
What have, what have I brought to the company this week? I get annoyed with myself if I have a wasted day. Um, so I'm sure most people think about their lives like that. I hope so.
[01:08:58] James: I mean, I'm gonna ask you two questions [01:09:00] that ask everyone at the end. Yeah. If I may. Gotcha. Um, the, the first one is what gets you up at five o'clock? Yes. And I happen to
[01:09:06] Neil: know now on a Monday morning. Um, well, Monday's are the most important day of retail, so I'm, uh, you've, I, it's, it is a, it's a mix of excitement and anxiety.
Um, I don't have an alarm clock. I set it at 4 47 actually, which is the house that I lived in with my mum. But I'm always up bored there. I'm. I'm sat there staring at the clock at about four 40 thinking, do I turn it off? Do I wait for it to go off? What do I do? You're
[01:09:31] James: awake at four 40? Yeah, I am.
[01:09:33] Neil: Yeah. And um, I drive in.
I live in Buckinghamshire. I drive in 'cause I like driving sometimes. Wish I lived further away to be honest. I drive in for 45 minutes. I'd go to a lovely little coffee shop in Camden called Salvino, which is a lovely mix of weird people like me. And we have a little coffee and then I'll play tennis at 7:00 AM in Camden [01:10:00] for an hour.
And then I'd come to the office, have a shower, and I'm ready to rock and roll by about 8 45. So that's, uh, actually that's every day for me actually. But Mondays are particularly exciting.
[01:10:14] James: Well, that's good to hear. So you've packed a lot in by nine o'clock. I am, yeah. I've the much of getting up early, I've done
[01:10:18] Neil: 700 active calories.
Oh, you, I'm very impressed
[01:10:21] James: by that alone. And the last question, which is a question in my interview book, uh, nailed it, and it's one of the fateful 15, one of the classic questions a lot of people get asked is, where do you see yourself in five
[01:10:33] Neil: years time? Crikey, I don't admit that I'm 58. You know, I'm, I say I'm 56, so I don't count covid, but if I have to be honest and say 58, so I'd be 63.
I hope I'm still here. Um, I hope I'm still here. I do love my job. I'm all, I, I, I, the only thing I'm paranoid about, well, I'm paranoid about lots of things actually, but in terms of my job, I want to go out [01:11:00] like, um, Alex Ferguson, let's say I want, I, I don't wanna talk of your game. I don't want to go out like Margaret Thatcher.
No. So I'm sort fearful in the back of a car Yeah. Being dragged out. No. So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very wary of when my time is up and I hope, I hope it isn't, you know, I'd love, it'd be nice to have a little pla in Lake Como and, you know, mess about a little bit with, or whatever. I dunno what I'm gonna do on retirement.
I hate the bloody word retirement to be honest. I don't even like discussing it. So I hope I'm still here and I hope that I've delivered what our plan says, which is doubling the size of the company in five years.
[01:11:45] James: Wow. Well, I'd like to invite you back here if you are, as I hope you will be. And I hope I am too.
[01:11:50] Neil (3): Yes. To have that conversation again. That's a deal I'm happy to do. That's the deal. Thank you very much for coming to
[01:11:56] James: talk to me Neil.
[01:11:57] Neil (3): Welcome that conversation.
[01:11:58] Neil: Thank
[01:11:58] Neil (3): you. [01:12:00] Thank.
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