When should you hire, raise or expand? The lessons from Forest Bikes | Caroline Seton

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In this episode of all about business, James sits down with Forest Bikes Co-Founder Caroline Seton, to pull back the curtain on how a London startup scaled to over two million rides a month. From using smart pricing to make customers do the heavy lifting in logistics, to navigating 33 separate sets of local regulations, Caroline breaks down the raw operational tactics and tough strategic trade-offs required to build, survive, and scale an asset-heavy business.

Caroline gives a clear blueprint for turning operational headaches into profit drivers as they explore protecting margins through relentless asset care, knowing exactly when to double down, or kill an idea that isn't working.

Timestamps (Video)

02:26 Why Forest Started
11:20 Expanding Across London
15:57 Maintenance at Scale
22:26 Proof It Was Working
30:21 ULEZ and Space Reallocation
37:14 Making London Cycle Capital
45:38 Founder Advice and Tailwinds

Timestamps (Audio)

01:38 Why Forest Started
10:32 Expanding Across London
15:09 Maintenance at Scale
21:38 Proof It Was Working
31:33 ULEZ and Space Reallocation
38:26 Making London Cycle Capital
44:50 Founder Advice and Tailwinds

Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/

Follow Caroline Seton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-seton-313765176/

Find out more about Forest Bikes and their services here: https://forest.bike/

Submit your application to Reed’s Entrepreneurs Fund for a chance to win a £20,000 grant: https://www.reed.com/entrepreneurs

[00:00:14] Today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Caroline Set- I'm gonna do that again. Oh, there we... I know, I know. No, yeah. So no, let's start again. So you don't need to do the clap aboard again, do you, Will? No. No, no. Today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Caroline Seaton to the studio.

[00:00:33] Caroline is the co-founder of Forest, a London-based e-bike company focused on sustainable urban mobility, and you ca- founded the company with others in 2019, I believe, Caroline, um, as Human Forest, and it was later rebranded as Forest. The company has grown to become one of the city's largest and fastest-growing e-bike operators with more than two million rides a month [00:01:00] across 19 boroughs in London.

[00:01:02] So welcome, Caroline, this morning. It is, it's really good to see you. Why did you start Forest? What was on your mind? Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. So within the bike market in London at the time, there was Santander, and there were a few other private operators, and what we thought there was a gap in the market for something that was sustainable and accessible, so in that sense, you know, affordable.

[00:01:25] And so we founded the business with 10 minutes free daily, and that was enabling people to sort of try cycling for the first time or, or try e-bikes, shared e-bikes for the first time without that kind of cost barrier. And since then, I mean, we've grown to 1.8 million users across London, um, so it's been a phenomenal kind of journey from something that we just...

[00:01:49] You know, and you would've seen the fabric of London change or, or the visuals of London change in how people are getting around, and bikes are often the quickest way, and so we want- Sure ... we [00:02:00] wanted to make that accessible for people, but in a sustainable way. So we felt like there was a, a gap in the market than, you know, what was currently being offered.

[00:02:08] So where, where was it that your first bikes hit the road? Yeah. Well, that was a really exciting moment for us. Right. I mean, us as founders actually took the bikes off the trucks and, um, and put them all around Islington. Islington. So it was Islington first. We were in Islington and Camden to begin with.

[00:02:25] And your sort of pitch to the rider or the user was this 10 minutes free. That was a differentiator for you. Yeah. And that's still the case, that's right? So we've actually moved from the 10 minutes free- Mm ... which, um, was, you know, our founding, founding offer, and we maintained that for four years. Or was it...

[00:02:43] No, sorry, that was, yeah, three, three years. And then last year we changed it, um, and now you can get up to 10, up to 30 minutes free a day, or up to 30 min- Sorry, I have m- muddled this up. Start again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what, yeah. So y- the, the 10 minutes free was your sort of founding offer. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:59] [00:03:00] How's that evolved since you started? Yeah, that has evolved. So when we first started, we would use the 10 minutes free in order to sort of grow cycling, in order to get people to adopt it and, and to give it a go. Now we've moved to 30 minutes for £1, um, which is an offer that people can take up on, on certain bikes.

[00:03:18] And so we're using it now as a tool for fleet management. Um, as you'll see, there's so many bikes around London. So we can use that tool to, you know, take, if there's excess number of bikes within one parking bay or one area, we can allocate different amounts of free minutes to those bikes to incentivize users to move them.

[00:03:36] Um- Or to get them to move them for you. Yeah, exactly. And like, we obviously, we have, you know, hundreds of, of people in our operations team and, and we call them guardians moving around London. But the quickest way is to get the users to do the work. So if there's a bike, um, you know, or an area is oversaturated, we can allocate different numbers of free minutes, and those are visible in the app.

[00:03:57] And a lot- So the user can see on the app. Yeah, the user can see. And a lot [00:04:00] of our users are actually, you know, they're price sensitive. Um, and so seeing that 30 minutes or 15 minutes free available on the bike, um, you know, does, does lead them to, to hire it. So what would be the average sort of payment per ride?

[00:04:15] Yeah, I mean, that is something that we, you know, can't necessarily- You keep out of secrets, do you? Yeah. But I mean- Yeah ... a, a lot, what I will say is that we've really noticed a massive shift, and this is kind of symptomatic of people integrating- Yeah ... bikeshare into their, their commute and their, sort of their habits, is that we've gone from the sort of pay-as-you-go user to the bundled user, so more of a subscription-based.

[00:04:38] Right. So over half our trips are done via a bundle. So what, what sort of bundles are available to people? So a bundle we can do, you know, can do a 24-hour bundle, you can do minute bundles. Um, and so for 24 hours it's, it's £10. So you pay that up front and you've got that much usage- And the minute usage

[00:04:55] until it, until it runs out. Yeah, exactly. Well, until you've used it for 24 hours, that's right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:05:00] Right. Um, and so that means we've just got different offers, you know, for different use cases. And what's the minute usage? How does that work? So the minute is 33p per minute. 33 per minute.

[00:05:11] And, and it's, and we also have the unlock fee. Right. And how much is that? £1. Right. I mean, so the, but the, you said it's price sensitive, so it's interesting. Yeah, users are price sensitive. Uh, but they can take the offer that, you know, suits- Yeah ... them best for, for their needs. So if you're a tourist coming to London, you might take that 24 hour because you're planning to, you know- Yeah

[00:05:30] do multiple trips, um, in a day. Yeah, of course. And that gives you the freedom and, and the flexibility to just pick up and drop off. Yeah. Um, it's really cool. There's a lot of competition though, isn't there? I mean, you weren't first to market, as you said. Yeah. No, we weren't. I mean, there's a lot of- And as you grew, it must have been very competitive.

[00:05:45] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we first launched, as I mentioned, there was Santander, Lime, Dot and Tier. Um, a huge sort of defining moment for us was when we won the Camden tender alongside Lime, um, and that displaced Dot and Tier. [00:06:00] And I think from a borough perspective, um, they were quite commoditized offers in the sense of, you know, the other three operators that I just mentioned, they were kind of offering the same thing, um, they all looked different with different bikes- Yeah

[00:06:12] but Forest offered something different. Um, and that's sort of where w- we thought that there was space in the market, and that sort of edge- So really, could, could you really explain what that difference is to me? So that was the sustainability angle. So Forest, um, was founded with zero emission operations, so that means we use entirely electric fleet.

[00:06:32] Um- So you're already net zero? We're already, yeah. So that was- Right ... right from the beginning. And then we also offset any of our scope three emissions, which, um, you know, is like the transport of the bike or the sh- for the freight incurred with the bikes. Right. Um, but we use sea freight and things like that to try and minimize.

[00:06:49] And so that was a, when we look at why our users choose Forest, there's sort of three, three main reasons. It's, you know, the sustainability, it's the affordability, [00:07:00] but it's then, it's also the availability. So I think what we're really noticing, particularly as in new entrants in the market- What users continue to look for is the, the operator that has, you know, enough bikes to know that you can reliably walk out of your, you know, your office or your home or a restaurant and, and get that bike that you have the app for.

[00:07:22] Well, probably people use several. Yeah. I mean, they're not gonna be exclusive to you typically, are they? Mm. Well, I think users have their favorite. Right. Um- So they'll look for you first. Yeah. And then, you know, perhaps 'cause they bought the bundle with- Mm ... you know, with, with a certain app operator, and so they wanna make the most of that.

[00:07:40] You know, the minute- Right ... the f- the minutes that they've sort of pre-purchased. Uh, so I think the people have their favorite, and then, you know, if their favorite's not available, they'll, they'll look to, to the second or third operator. How much was that 24-hour, uh, bundle again? 10 pound. 10 pound. Or basically 10 pounds, yeah.

[00:07:54] That seems very reasonable. So, so this is- Have you tried a scooter? I, I'm going to. I'm gonna [00:08:00] get a bundle. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I ride a Vespa.

[00:08:06] Ah, nice. Okay. So, you know, I'm not in the ... I, I'm sort of ... I get overtaken by people on your bikes. Uh, and they don't have number plates, so they can beat the 20 mile an hour limit sometimes downhill, I think. Oh. But they probably aren't encouraged to do that. No, no. No, no, no. So, um- You have to, i- as I understand it, win borough by borough- Yeah

[00:08:23] the, the, the contract to- So this is- ... deliver this service. Yeah. Is that right? This is, has to be the biggest challenge for operating in London right now, and that's the patchwork reg- regulation. So across every borough, we go borough by borough, as you say, to agree either, you know, either a procurement process or an, a MOU, which is called a memorandum of understanding.

[00:08:46] They're not as legally enforceable, but they sort of can be quicker for the, for the, um, borough to run in order to pro- procure the services. But it does mean... And in the most extreme examples, um, you know, in the [00:09:00] early days, you would have one borough where it was free-floating parking, so you could, you know, as long as you parked responsibly, you could park- Mm

[00:09:07] you know, in theory, wherever you wanted. And then in the neighboring borough, it's, you know, a mandatory parking bay model. And that's really tricky for users because they don't know when they've crossed a borough boundary. And what happens when they get that wrong? Well, they get a fine. Um- They get a fine.

[00:09:23] Not immediately. So we offer a- Right ... off, you know, we operate a three-strike process 'cause we don't wanna create inertia around, you know- Right ... if a user does it the first time, and they're just trying the bike, and they don't understand how it works. But the TfL regulation, which we hope will come into f- into force, um, you know, in, you know, 12 to 18 months as well- TfL, Transport for London.

[00:09:44] Transport for London. Well, they're looking at the whole city now, aren't they? Yeah. So, so- Yeah ... there's been a recent, um, legislation come in, the English Devolution Bill, which has allowed, allowed local authorities, you know, m- the power to regulate, you know, [00:10:00] micro mobility is one of those things, um, within London.

[00:10:02] So TfL is part of that, will get... Um, has that power. So we are hoping for a more seamless approach to London, and that will be better for the user, um, you know, and better for the city, in that we can standardize a lot of the sort of inconsistencies that can create, you know, confusion, um, and also, you know, don't lead to the best outcomes in the sense that people don't know where they should park.

[00:10:26] No, fair enough. Yeah. It's complicated. It makes it- Yeah, it's complicated. How many boroughs are there in London, do you know? Well, there's 33 boroughs. 33. We're, um, we're in 20. Right. So we have the biggest service area of any operator in London. Sorry, I said 19. So you're now in 20. Yeah, hot off the press. So you've obviously, you've obviously added one.

[00:10:41] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's good. Hot off the press. Um- Which was the most recent? So the most recent is Ealing. Ealing. Um- Big borough. Yeah, big borough, yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's been really exciting for us. Um, we've won all, you know, the tenders that we've participated in this year. Right. Well, congratulations.

[00:10:56] Um, so we feel like there's really strong momentum, um, [00:11:00] as we sort of build that service area. Because the main thing about London is really that connectivity. You need to go with an operator that you know you can get, you know, where you want to go, and I think that's the problem with sort of new operators coming in, is that they're in, say, eight boroughs or nine boroughs.

[00:11:18] Yes. And for a user, as I just said, you don't know if you've crossed the borough boundary, you don't know where you're meant to be. So that TFL tender which standardizes and, you know, eliminates that patchwork will be brilliant. Yeah. And that's, when will that happen? The jury sort of, we, we're waiting. Um- Well, hopefully the next year or two, but- Yeah, hopefully the next year or two.

[00:11:38] I mean, we've- Yeah ... been sort of advocating for this for some time now, um, you know, for the reasons I've mentioned, but it just has to run its process. So, so you have to sell two ways really, don't you? You have to get the London boroughs to sort of sign you up and, and give you a green light, and you have to get the, the riding public to choose you over- Exactly

[00:11:55] other competing offers. Yeah. So they've ... Th- and they're quite different in a way, those [00:12:00] marketing efforts. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're, you're completely right. Um, I mean, the users, you know, as I mentioned, they sort of focus, like, sustainability, availability, and pr- um, price. Yeah. Um- What do the, what do the local authorities want?

[00:12:15] The local authorities, I mean, they are ... You know, and it actually varies. Some, some boroughs are really motivated by value for their users in terms of the pricing. Uh, but for others it's more around parking. You know, what are the technology that you have in place? Or it may even come down to things like what insurance you have in place.

[00:12:33] So there's really, like, competing priorities again across all the boroughs. Right. Um, and I guess that's why you end up with, you know- Yes ... some operators in one and not in the other, because it's ... But I, you know, at this point I think we've been able to ... We've been in London for so long now, uh, we understand, you know, the needs of the individual boroughs, um, and the needs of the users.

[00:12:54] So we've been able to create an offer that we think best serves everybody. Well, well you're, [00:13:00] you're different to some of the other providers in that you are London-focused. Isn't that right? Yeah. So we're just in London, so, you know, all our investment, you know, is designed for London. So, you know, when we invest in the technology, when we upgrade the app, this is with London in mind so we can deliver the best solution, you know, for all those stakeholders, because we're not thinking about the stakeholders when we design the tech in other cities with other nuances.

[00:13:26] It's very much London. So you're a British company- We are- ... focused on London. Yeah, we're a British business. The founders, you know, and the management team live, work, and breathe Forest and London. Well, I, I think we should get behind Forest on that basis then. Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. Oh. I mean, uh, we, we should, uh, I, I'll be picking you first.

[00:13:43] Yeah. So, so th- what you've described to me- You know, I run a business. Um, sounds operationally pretty complicated. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Um, it must be. I mean, sort of you've got so many moving parts, literally. Literally. Literally. Yeah. Um, [00:14:00] how do you get your head around that? How do you manage that? Well, we have an absolutely phenomenal COO, and he's ex-Zipcar, he's ex-military.

[00:14:08] He runs- So he's a logistics person. He, he's a logistics pro. Um, and he runs, you know, he runs it as a really tight ship. Um- Right ... and so there's that, and then there's also the tech. So, you know, as I just mentioned, we're kind of built, we've also built an operations platform. We call it Forest Fleet. It's all built in-house, and it's designed to optimize and, and deliver the best results.

[00:14:33] So, so what do you do when one of your bikes gets chucked in the Regent's Canal? Oh, I know, I know. I mean, that- What happens then? ... fortunately doesn't happen too much now. I think that's- I'm not encouraging this behavior. Yeah, I know. I, I've, I have seen them- Well, we get it out ... you know, and in the river, and so- Yeah.

[00:14:42] No,

[00:14:46] we get it out. But I mean, we run- You know, a proactive maintenance program. So each bike is kind of, there's a touch point on each bike every 24 hours, and that might be a guardian, it might be someone checking- Every 24 hours someone's checking it? Yeah. Well, because [00:15:00] they're used so much, and it's a combination- Right

[00:15:02] of, you know, they're either being tidied, their, the battery's been swapped, or we also sort of do proa- we do proactive maintenance on- So how many people do you have doing that? Over 200. So it's a big- you're a big employer. How many people do you have in the business? Well, there's 300. Yeah. Right. And 200 of those are, are guardians?

[00:15:18] Yeah, guardians or- Looking after the bikes ... or maintenance. Yeah. So, so we- So every bike gets a touch point every 24 hours. Every 24 hours. Yeah. So is that at night that people are doing this or? So it's, like, a combination really. I mean, in some, you know, residential areas we won't operate at night. So again, it's like, it's a very layered approach to the operations.

[00:15:34] Because of where people are. Yeah, exactly. So you kind of have to be, you have to design your ops- Right ... and plan- It is like the military ... for the environment. 24/7. It is. Yeah. No, it totally is. But there'll be... You know, so we do this proactive maintenance, and then every year a bike will go back to the warehouse and have, like, the full conditioning.

[00:15:53] Right. And that kind of goes back to our sustainability point, is that we've been able to extend the life of our bikes beyond the [00:16:00] five years, and we're looking now to getting the bikes to sort of seven, eight years. But they still, you won't know the difference between if you're riding on a, you know, five-year-old bike or a new bike.

[00:16:10] And it's- Well, when you get on an airplane they can be quite old, can't they? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So we have such a proactive approach to maintenance, like, way beyond the manufacturer's recommendations, because we have this long-term view, and we don't wanna be... You know, our answer- Do... Are all the bikes sourced from the same place?

[00:16:27] Yeah, they are. Yeah. Who, who manufactures them? It's a manufacturer called Ochai. Right. And where are they based? They're in Taiwan. Taiwan. And China, and, and China as well. But we- Oh ... we also input into the bike. So we have a partnership with Ochai where we are really helping to fine-tune, you know- So you're-

[00:16:47] develop ... you go and visit the- Yeah ... plant. And I'm gonna hate to say this, they won't like this, but I think we know the bike, you know, just as well if, if not better than, than they do. Yeah. They probably do. Yeah. Yeah. They should ask you lots of questions. Yeah. I mean, and [00:17:00] we- Yeah ... you know, 'cause there's been various iterations- Probably know- uh, you probably own more of the, of them than anyone else.

[00:17:04] Yeah. No, a- and, and there's been various iterations. And so, you know, our R&D team is always feeding in, you know, developments and, like, product upgrades. So how many bikes have you got? Around 30,000. 30,000 on the road, touched every day. Mm, yeah. Yeah, every day. What if they're not in, in- Yeah, yeah ... so that's an amazing logistical operation.

[00:17:25] Yeah. So, so- You hired a COO with a sort of logistics military background. W- w- how do you divide up your responsibilities with your co-founders? W- who, who does what? How does it work? Yeah, that's, it's even quite interesting and, like, really exciting, you know, how it's evolved. So when we first started, so it was Augustine, who's our, the CEO, and he's ex-Cabify, so he has a huge amount of experience in micromobility.

[00:17:52] And we also have Mike Stewart, who has, you know, is a major marketing sort of- Mm ... consumer head, and then [00:18:00] myself, who was very involved in, like, the policy and the legal side. So I think when you, when you first start, you sort of divide and conquer, and you, you pick up the areas that you have some experience and, and naturally in a startup you have to pick up areas that you're, you know, you're gonna learn on the job a bit, you know, so around, you know, the comms or, you know, something like that.

[00:18:19] Sure. There's a lot of things that you might not have done. You know, you naturally, you can't hire. You, there's not the luxury- Mm ... of hiring for every role. Um, but now that we've got so much bigger, it's feels like a real treat, you know, to have, you know, we have a head of comms, we have a head of policy- Yes

[00:18:33] you know, a head of legal. We have all the... Everyone can specialize now. Um- Yes ... and that's been really wonderful to see and, and, you know, to build the team. So as, as you grew, you know, from those early days in Islington, what did you find the biggest challenge was? Yeah. The biggest challenge is really knowing the right time to, to increase the team.

[00:18:54] So we were always really fisc- fiscally responsible, I think this [00:19:00] is, um, and raising only when we need to. So we wanted to sort of make sure that we didn't make any to- you know, expensive mistakes. So we've always run- Because people are expensive and important. Yeah, exactly. And you wanna make sure that you hire the right people, you know- Mm

[00:19:13] for the long term. So we're always running a lean team, and then the challenge is knowing, like, when is the right time to hire, and we always kind of... You know, we definitely waited until- Looking back, do you think you were too slow or too fast doing that hiring? I think in some cases, you know, we were probably a little bit too slow.

[00:19:32] For example, we had the finance and the HR section, um, you know, departments together. Right. So we had a head of finance and HR. Yeah. I mean, I think he was, you know So you now have that split? Yeah, now we now have that split, and that makes a lot more sense. I think we should have done that earlier. Right.

[00:19:48] Yeah. But, you know, that's difficult when you're just starting out. Yeah, you're just starting out, and- You know, doing all those ... you know, and also it takes time to hire people as well. Yes. So, you know, when you're, you know, really head down, you got so [00:20:00] much to do, both in finance and HR, the thought of hiring somebody is just, you know, throwing a whole nother work stream into the mix, so you just carry on.

[00:20:08] Um, and we've also got, you know, a wonderful head of legal now too. So perhaps those hires could have come a bit sooner. So you- you've said head of legal, and you've mentioned legal a few times. What, what are the legal issues that you have to contend with? Well, it's all, um, you know, negotiating all the borough licenses.

[00:20:24] Right. Um, it's nonstop, you know, all the leasing, the buildings that we lease. It's the contr- um, you know, all the different contracts that we have with, you know, the rental companies, uh... We sometimes use contracted labor when we need to manage peaks. Oh. You know, like- So you have a lot of legal requirements.

[00:20:40] Yeah- Yeah ... like a heat wave or, you know- Yeah ... the tube strike. Um, at that point- It w- yeah ... sometimes we get, you know, we get extra people in. So it just seems to be always stuff to do. We also have the ad model, you know, the ad business, um- Right ... where we're selling both digital ads within the app and also the physical ads.

[00:20:57] So we've got that omni-media channel so, you know, the legal [00:21:00] also is involved in that. So there's loads of things. So, so at what point on this journey, forgive the pun I know. On this journey- On this trip yeah ... did you think, "Yeah, this is, this is actually working"? I mean, um- Yeah ... was there a moment when you thought, "This is, this is, this is going-" I have to say, and I mentioned it before, quite a defining moment when we did win, win Camden.

[00:21:22] Yes. Um, and it was shortly after that, that Dot and Tier actually both left London. Oh. And we- So these rivals departed? Yeah, and we thought, "Oh, you know, this is-" That encouraged you. Yeah, we were- Yeah ... I mean... So that was amazing. And, and now, you know, with these recent tenders as well, because I think often, like, you don't celebrate the wins as much as you should.

[00:21:45] You know, you think, "Oh, that was a relief," and then you move on to the next thing. Um, but then also just as more of, like, a fun, you know, we obviously have a big dashboard in the office which shows how many bikes are hired at one point, and when we passed 1,000 [00:22:00] bikes for the first time, we were all ringing the bell, and that was really exciting.

[00:22:04] Yeah. How long, how long ago was that? That would've been- You know, maybe four and a half, five years ago now So that's re- but you've grown- But we still remember it, you know- Yeah, yeah ... so well, and you think, "Oh my gosh." And you can... You know, we get pretty excited by all the data that, um, we can see around the different bikes and where they're going.

[00:22:23] So you- you- you've mentioned sustainability as your key or one of your key messages. Mm. I mean, some mobility companies it seems have, have, you know, expanded very rapidly and then not s- sort of succeeded. Been entrenched, yeah. Does, does, does sustainability also apply in terms of your business strategy being sustainable as well as- Absolutely, yeah.

[00:22:42] Yeah. So we're a B Corp. Um, we were- Right ... verified a number of years ago. Um, and that's really important to us. Um, but it- Why, why is it important to you? Because we... We're a phys- we're a community business. You know, we have, you know, as I mentioned- Yeah ... lots of users in London. We have a huge workforce. Um, [00:23:00] and we, you know...

[00:23:01] So giving back to the, to the community, making sure our employees have good career development, that is really important for us. Um, and so that's where, where the B Corp comes in. But- So you set out very early on to be a B Corp then? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a number of years ago now. Um, because we think, you know, people, profit, and planet.

[00:23:22] Look what we, you know, we're trying to clean the air in London, or- Yeah ... you know, decarbonize transport, so that was really important. Um, but this from the sustainability point of view, the financial sustainability is really important, so that's been responsible in the sense of we don't... If a seat is ripped, like if, if there's a, like, like on the leather is ripped, we don't replace the whole seat.

[00:23:43] We just fix the- The rip ... fix the leather. And it's those kind of things that, you know, we've got the, our head in cost savings, and in a way that we're thinking about this business for the long term. We don't want those seats to end up in landfill. There's no need. Yes. Um, you know, it's, [00:24:00] it, it actually works out more cost effective to fix it, but you need the team and the- How do you fix a leather seat with a rip in it?

[00:24:07] You literally just sew it back together. You sew it back like you would in a- And we have a team that does it ... in an old-fashioned thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So someone who's sewing up seats? Yep. Right. So then you've got quite a lot of artisans involved- Yeah, I know ... on some ways. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, a lot.

[00:24:20] That's very interesting. And you only operate e-bikes, is that right? Yeah, we're just e-bikes. Yeah. You haven't gone on to scooters? No, scooters- Why not? Yeah ... I mean... Well, our f- you know, founding principles was about the whole idea of human forest, which I know you mentioned- Yeah In essence, our riders are like a human forest in that they're remo- you know, we're avoiding CO2.

[00:24:42] Right. And so we felt that scooters wasn't replacing car trips in the way that bikes could. Um- Could, could you explain why not? Uh, because they, they don't... I mean, the research shows that they are more likely to replace walking, um- Oh ... than car trips. Um, scooters, 'cause you don't go [00:25:00] the same distance. And we also have- Oh, I see.

[00:25:02] I didn't, I had no idea- Yeah ... that that's what you meant. Okay. Yes. So yeah, sorry. So a bike replaces a car trip, but a scooter replaces a walk. Yes. I mean- Typically. Typically. I mean, that's what- Right ... sort of where we sit on it. Obviously not everybody- Right ... would, would agree No, no, it's interesting ... but- So you, you think people should walk and, yeah.

[00:25:19] Yeah, we think- Ideally for their own benefit and the city. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like we're all for- Yeah. Scooters get in the way of the road as well. Yeah. And they're also not used as much, um, as bikes are. So- Stop for one second while that- Just that helicopter or something. Yeah

[00:25:39] Um

[00:25:44] Yeah, the utilization rate on scooters is much lower than bikes. So for example, in some boroughs, you know, over this last week, we'll be seeing 10 trips per bike per day. Right. Whereas on the scooters, you're ... I mean, I don't know what the figures are for, for this last week, but [00:26:00] typically it's 1.5, two trips per scooter- Right

[00:26:04] per day. So, so you're, so that's obviously a key measure, the utilization of the bike. The utilization rate is absolutely key for us, so that's for- Yeah ... and we think- 10 trips per bike alone. Yeah, that's for- And that's high, is it? It, it's high, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Summer weather and so on. Summer weather. I mean, and so some days it's been 12.

[00:26:21] Yeah. I mean, which is just- So is that a peak for you? Yeah. It's been incredible. Yeah. So business is good. Business is good. So it must be quite seasonal in that sense. People are gonna be on their bikes more in the summer- Yeah ... months than the winter. I mean, they drop, it drops about 30%. It's not, you don't, it doesn't fall off a cliff like I actually, you know, would have thought, you know.

[00:26:39] You were worried about that, were you? Yeah . You think, oh my gosh. Yeah. But actually through the winter because it's relatively dry and- Yeah ... you know, that, that rain isn't prohibitive for cycling that we get in January, February time. Um, so it's, yeah, it's about 30% off its peak, although more than 30% off this, you know- Yeah

[00:26:56] this peak in the la- in the last week. But I think just back to [00:27:00] the, what we're really thinking about in this, like, broader discussion around, you know, what's London gonna look like from a transport perspective over the next sort of 5, 10 years, there's a bit of a recalibration in the sense that, you know, 2 million trips are done a day on bikes in London now, and we're really wanting to, you know, push that we need to think about how we allocate space, 'cause space is finite in London.

[00:27:24] There's such a limited amount of it that we need to prioritize the modes that are being used. So for us, we look at a car parking space, and this car could stay stationary for one, you know, two, three days, and at the moment, you know, based on those numbers that I just mentioned to you, that could be between, like, 80 and 100 trips facilitated from one car parking space where a car's just sat there.

[00:27:49] Mm. Um, so it's really what we wanna try and do, you know, the next ... You know, we'd ideally have liked it to be done yesterday, but is convert more [00:28:00] car parking spaces, particularly in Central London, to bike share. Mm. So what, I mean, what in your vision does London look like in 5 or 10 years' time? I mean, I mean, is it just masses of bikes?

[00:28:13] Is that what you're seeing? Yeah, I mean, we would, you know, we'd love that. And the, I mean, the- I, I bet you'd love that, but is that what you think it's gonna look like? We would love that. I mean, I don't know if it's- I'm not sure ... going to look like that, but incremental. Well, I can imagine that that's popular with some people, yeah.

[00:28:24] The, the- Incrementally ... it might not be popular with others. No, I know. But I mean- And is that the problem you have? Yeah, I mean- There's quite a lot of politics around this, isn't there? Yeah, there is. But it's obviously gonna be incremental. Yeah. Um, and we can slowly start, because- Bike share is used by a lot of Gen, Gen Zs.

[00:28:39] Yeah. Um, you know, we have a whole cohort, but we're seeing declining, you know, driver's license applications with Gen Zs. Uh- So they're not bothering to- No, they're not. And so as, you know, that cha- as those kind of dynamics change, as the Gen Zs, you know, move through the ranks, there's gonna be less demand on, on [00:29:00] car.

[00:29:00] You know, private ownership is falling, um, as it becomes more expensive, particularly- Is that, is that just true in London though, or is it true in general? Um, I'm talking about London, yeah. Yeah Or central London. London seems like it's dif- central London's- Central London ... different to the rest of the country, though, I expect.

[00:29:12] Yeah. No, no, no, absolutely. And I'm, I'm talking- Yeah ... about London here. But, and also, you know, a lot of the measures that, you know, the mayor has put into place really- Mm ... effectively to, to prioritize active travel and clean air, you know, the ULEZ, for example. Yeah. So with those kind of... As those measures are implemented, you know, the allocation of, you know, public space needs to change to reflect that.

[00:29:35] Yes. And then we can sort of, you know, 'cause obviously bike share has been tricky in the sense of it's completely, you know, swelled the usage, and we have scenes of bikes, you know- Mm ... overcrowded on p- uh, you know, on, on an existing base. And we can solve that by handing, you know, more car parking spaces over to bikes.

[00:29:55] So that's your, that's your principal ask. Could we have more bays to park? Yeah, we need more bays, and I think [00:30:00] that makes it, you know, ultimately it's better for the users, it's better for the non-users because we have a more orderly management, you know, of the bikes. Um, and it makes the city function more smoothly.

[00:30:13] But it's obviously a p- difficult, a difficult thing to do, that, you know, transition away from, you know, from car pa- parking spaces, which people seem to love. Well, I suppose if they're used to parking outside their home- Yeah ... when it turns, it gets turned into a bike bay, they might be unhappy. No, and, and I, it- But that's a sort of localized thing, isn't it?

[00:30:32] It's a localized- I can see how the big picture is- Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But certainly- It, it's pushing in your direction ... gonna be... Yeah. So, yeah. Um, you've just raised another round of finance on Sand Series B, is that right? Yeah, that's right. Are you able to tell me a little bit about that or what, how that- Yeah.

[00:30:47] Yeah. When? So we raised a Series B. It was a combination of debt and equity. Um, that was a big milestone for us as a company in, in our- How much did you raise? Um, so we raised 20 million. 20 million? [00:31:00] Yeah That's an impressive sum. Yeah. Debt and equity, how is it split? Yeah, around half-half. Yeah. Right. Um, and were you very involved in that yourself?

[00:31:07] Yes. Um, not so much in the debt side, that's run by the finance, but on the equity side, yeah. Yeah. And so what, what messages would you give sort of entrepreneurs on how to go about raising a sum of money like that? Yeah, I mean- Any tips? I know. How, how do you go and get equity 10 million plus? I mean, I have to say it's never- What, what, I mean, how...

[00:31:30] So, so well, you obviously had to go and present to lots of people, did you? I mean, obviously- Yes. I mean, it's, yeah, a lot of talking. And what... Yeah, a lot of talking. A lot of talking. But what, what were they asking you? What were the sort of questions you were asked? I mean, you get asked a lot about, you know, the regulation, but I think the Lime IPO has been really good for the industry in general.

[00:31:45] 'Cause I think we always, in the really early days of the industry- So when was that, the Lime IPO? That was last month. So they was- So very recently. This summer ... really recently, this summer. Oh. And it showed that, you know, we had a bit of a time where my- How much was it floated for? It was 1.6 billion, um- So that [00:32:00] was quite helpful for you.

[00:32:01] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and the sense that it's- So Lime was valued at 1.6 billion. Yeah. Right And it, it listed on the NASDAQ, and, and the shares have continued, have performed well post- But Lime operates in lots of cities, right? Yeah, they're in 230-odd cities Yeah ... but what it did show is that, you know, institutional capital, you know, is backing micromobility.

[00:32:21] I think it had been- Micomobility's now a category, I guess. It i- it's now a category- Yeah ... and I think in the very- Oh ... like early days, you know, six years ago, there were the likes of, like, ofo and Mobike, and they kind of disappeared And then there was a bit of M&A in the sector, um, with like the Dott and Tier merger.

[00:32:37] But now... And it was sort of seen as these like really capital intensive businesses, you know, how are you gonna make any money? And- Mm ... I think we're a little bit scared of that. So you've gotta buy a lot of bikes. Yeah, you've gotta buy a lot of bikes. But now with the Lime IPO, it, you know, it really showed there's institutional backing for them, and there was a lot of infrastructure funds, which is showing the way that micromobility is now viewed.

[00:32:58] It's viewed as a, as [00:33:00] a part of the city. It's not an, just a novel way to get around. Mm. It's actually something that people rely upon. Here to stay. Yeah, exactly. It's here to stay. Um, so it did just sort of, you know, and I think on the back of it you'll have other sort of, you know, other micromobility companies being able to raise, raise more.

[00:33:19] So how does that affect your strategy though? Are you still just gonna focus on London or are you gonna look at other places? Yeah, we're very much just a London, London business. So your r- B fundraise was focused on London? London, yeah. Yeah. And to develop the technology, um, to continue to develop the technology, our app, we would always be investing and obviously- So you see London as a good market in its own right?

[00:33:39] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there's plenty of growth here, you think? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I think it sort of, you know, we're in 20 boroughs, there's 33 boroughs in London. There's a lot of, you know- Yeah, I was gonna ask, who, who are you, who, who do you envisage reaching next? So, you know, who's not riding that you think will be?

[00:33:59] Yeah, I mean, [00:34:00] I think a lot of it- So the people in boroughs you're not in, I suppose. Yeah, exactly, and I... In all the boroughs... You know, when we first launched, I think the boroughs were sort of happy with the status quo, that bikes are just gonna operate- Mm ... as they always have. You know, bikes are such a part of British culture.

[00:34:15] But now it's gone from being bikes are sort of, you know, we've got like kids learning to ride and, and the Lycra crew, to now it's very much just part of the transport mix. And so the boroughs, you know, in the last couple of years have all been approaching saying, you know, "We want to formalize our agreements with you and, and ensure that we have the service available to our residents."

[00:34:38] Yeah. So what, what have, what have, what have been some of the sort of tricky challenges you've had or pushbacks you've had- Yeah ... as, as a micro mobility company or bike business? I mean, it has been, you know, in some cases it is a bit like Marmite. Yeah. Or, you know- Well, well, in what way? What- ... Vegemite, as you say in New Zealand.

[00:34:55] But, um- Yeah ... because the users love them, and [00:35:00] then the non-users, you know, in some cases fair enough, you know, are, are compromised by the way that some users leave them. People have put them all over the pavement. Yeah. Yeah, and so, and we can understand that. Yeah. And as I said earlier, the solution is more parking infrastructure.

[00:35:15] Yeah. Yeah, but the, the challenges have really been that patchwork of regulation. What, what about users having accidents? I mean, people who don't ride bikes very often and maybe don't have a helmet getting on one of your bikes , is that a problem? It hasn't been a problem. Um, we have, you know, go slow mode and educational pieces.

[00:35:33] Um- Oh, what's go slow mode? Go slow mode, so when you first start- Oh, you can't ... to hire a bike for the first time- Oh, right ... you're in go slow mode. So how long do you remain like this? For your first, for your first ride. Do they get frustrated by that? Yeah. Yeah. Do they? I didn't know that. So- Yeah, so that's just a way to get confident on it.

[00:35:49] Um- Right ... and then there's the education. How fast can you go in go slow mode? So it's 10 miles, miles per hour. Well, that's still pretty good, yeah. Yeah. So but it just kind of takes the- And what's the top speed without it? [00:36:00] 15. Okay. But, and then we also do, you know, refresher educational, um- So it's capped at 15?

[00:36:07] Yeah, 15.5. Yeah. Right. Right. So, so it's, it's, it's the sort of dynamic between the user and the non-user that you have to be- And that's where we- ... cognizant of ... you know, need to work, and we work really hard with local council, and now obviously the national framework coming into place to try and manage those challenges on a London level.

[00:36:30] Yeah. So what else needs to happen for London to become the best cycling city in the world? For the mayor, the, I mean, the mayors, you know, the previous mayor and then Sadiq Khan have really made great progress in this. Yeah. Um, cycle lanes is really important, and a lot of the research- Cyclists love them.

[00:36:47] They're motorists not so much. No, I know. Another is- Seems to be, yeah. Another friction. Yeah. Um- It's interesting ... but cycle lanes- Uh ... you know, a lot of research shows that, you know, the presence of cycle lanes increases [00:37:00] cycling because people feel more confident, um, and protected. And then, you know, it's more cycling infrastructure.

[00:37:07] Right. And it's also about, you know- And is there, do we have a lot to do in London, or is it n- nearly there in your view? No, I think we could, can always keep, keep improving. Keep improving. But the other aspect to that as well is integrating, you know, bike share a- at, at transport hubs. So making sure that, you know, when you get off the Tube, there's a, a parking bay there that you can then integrate that, so it's like these multimodal- Yes

[00:37:29] journeys. And that improves, uh- And is that happening? It's certainly happened at my Tube station. Yes, definitely it's happening. Um, but it just- Yeah ... needs to keep happening. Yeah. Right. So there's a lot for London still to do. Yeah. I mean- How do you think we compare with other cities? Yeah, I mean, we, we, we, we were definitely lagging, um, but the progress- We were a laggard, were we?

[00:37:50] We're a la- yeah. Were we? So but w- what, who are you thinking of? Other European capitals. Who, yeah, who are you thinking of? So if you think of Paris, for example. Right. Paris is ahead of London in this? In, yeah, they [00:38:00] have been. I mean, the cycle lanes, their cycle lanes are honestly, they need to widen their cycle lanes now because they feel like high- bike highways.

[00:38:07] Yeah. Right. So that's the next level. They're, they will need to- That's the next challenge ... they will need level, yeah. So maybe you have s- just routes that just become cycle routes through cities. Yeah, there's been a lot of- Is that what happen- has that happened in places? Yeah, it has. Yeah. And they're like the, well, sort of pedestrianization or,

[00:38:22] or just, you know- Yeah ... you know, the combo of cycle, cycling and pedestrians. Yeah. So, um, there's a lot of change still to come, it seems- Definitely- ... in this space ... definitely. But, I mean, London has really accelerated in this- Right ... over the last few years. No, it's noticeable as a, as a citizen. Yeah, you would've noticed.

[00:38:38] Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Um- Thinking about y- leadership and entrepreneurship now as, as we get towards the end of the conversation, what, what have you learned about building teams, you know, in your business during this period of rapid growth? I mean, you've obviously gone from a handful of people literally to 300 plus.

[00:38:58] Yeah. What have you learned, Caroline? [00:39:00] I mean, our retention has been really strong, and we're really proud of that. Um, and our NPS score has been, has been going up particularly now with our new, you know, VP of, of HR who's been kind of managing this more closely and able to track it. Um- So what do you do?

[00:39:17] When you say your score's gone up, what are you doing? In terms of, you know, w- would you recommend- You're, you're talking about your net promoter score Well, then when- Yeah ... we do that within our employees, so- You do that in-house ... you know, and they, would they recommend Forest as a place to work? Do they like working for Forest?

[00:39:28] And- So what, how, what, what's the sort of score on that? Oh, gosh, I'm not actually sure off the top of my head- Are you, but it's good, is it? ... but I know it's improved. Yeah. It's improved. And it's good. Yeah. Um, but also our retention's really strong. So across the leadership team and within management, everyone has been there for at least five years.

[00:39:42] So how would you describe the culture, then? I mean, it's a work hard, play hard culture. We do a lot as a team together, you know, team socials. What do you do socially? We say, "Happy Monday," and you know, our CEO really means it when he says, "Happy Monday." Well, we say, "Love Monday." Oh, oh yeah. And I mean it. Yeah, yeah, same thing.

[00:39:59] Yeah, [00:40:00] yeah. I'll come to that in a minute. You know, and it's like- That's good ... yeah, we have great sort of socials down at the, at the warehouse where everyone comes along. Where is your warehouse? So we have four warehouses, but our sort of main one and the one that we've had for a long time is in Southwark.

[00:40:12] Right. And that's kind of the heart of... That's the beating heart. So a lot of bikes there. A lot of h- a lot of bikes, and it's, that's the beating heart of, of Forest, down in, down in Southwark. So that's where most people are based, is it? Well, it's where a lot of the operations team are based. Yeah. Um, and for a long time, you know, the sort of HQ was there as well- Yeah

[00:40:29] but then when the operations got too big, we needed to create more space for- So where are your other warehouses? We're in, uh, so with our other main one is in Merton. Right. And that's absolutely enormous. Um, and then our, like, sort of office HQ is in Moorgate. Right. You mentioned four, though. Oh, yes, and there's two others- Yeah

[00:40:46] so around the city, smaller ones, so make sure that we can kind of- Right ... have all the city covered and, and never be too far away from, you know, a bike that needs servicing. Yeah. So, so you've put a lot of emphasis on creating an environment [00:41:00] that's great to work in and a team that's good to be a part of, it sounds to me.

[00:41:04] Definitely. It's a supportive culture. We work, we have one day, um, from home a week, which is- Right ... you know, we have Wednesdays from home because otherwise- You can't do that if you're a guardian, though, can you? No, exactly. But from, um... No. I don't imagine, anyway. No, but from the terms of- It's all right for you office Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:41:24] But is that fair? Do you think that's okay that some people- Well, I guess you- ... work from home and others can't? Yeah, I guess, well, that's the sort of job that you choose- Yes ... to do. I mean, you don't wanna become a guardian if you- Wanna work from home ... yeah, want to work from home. Yeah. I mean, I mean, these people- Uh, you know, like now- But the people who do work from home value that day

[00:41:41] they value that day. Yeah. But I think actually we often, we have free lunch on a Wednesday if you come in. Right. And often a lot of people do end up actually coming in. Right. And we're quite a young work f- you know, team as well. We- So do you have a kitchen in the Southwark place? Uh, there is a kitchen in the Southwark one- Yeah

[00:41:59] for the [00:42:00] ops guys, but in the, you know, HQ where we- Oh, that's Moorgate ... Moorgate. Yeah. We, we, you know, order in- Right ... on a, on a Wednesday. On a Wednesday you get a lunch. Yeah. So, um, looking, looking back, is there anything you would've done differently, you know, if you were starting Forest today? Chris, I've been thinking about this question a lot lately, and- I, I actually, it's sort of you're learning from your mistakes all the time.

[00:42:27] Yeah. And you don't, you don't wanna regret them in a way. You, 'cause you learn from them. Yes. So in terms of doing something differently, I mean, we probably wouldn't have launched the mopeds. That was definitely a- Okay, what was that? ... something that we didn't need to do. Um, they were like Ves- essentially like a Vespa.

[00:42:44] Vespa. Yeah. That's what I've got. So you had mopeds. I didn't know you did that. We had mopeds. All right. We had a small trial of mopeds, and I think, you know, our other two founders were from, from South America originally. They've seen a lot of time- Mm ... in Spain with, with Cabify, and we thought that perhaps the mopeds could [00:43:00] be something that was- So you mentioned Cabify.

[00:43:03] Is that- Cabify. So yeah. Cabify, yeah. Cabify, um, is sort of like Uber of South America- Right ... and, and they're in Spain as well, so, and they're ride hailing, and they also had micro-mobility. I see. Um- So they saw a sort of potential overlap with that potentially. Yeah, and I think they thought, you know, we can bring mopeds in the way that they're- Oh

[00:43:24] the use is prolific across y- you know, Europe to London. So why do you think that didn't work? It didn't work mainly because of the, well, because of the insurance. It was prohibitively- Right ... expensive to insure- Interesting ... people like you and I- Right ... riding on them. So we ended up just renting them to delivery riders- Right

[00:43:42] um, and then slowly phasing that business line out. So that was definitely a mistake, and I think it goes back to when you are starting a business, you've gotta remember what your founding principles are- What you're trying to do ... and stick with it, and that's when we kinda deviate. That's the lesson you learned from that, I suppose.

[00:43:57] Yeah. I know, and w- and, and that's, you know, [00:44:00] we deviated with the mopeds, and we shouldn't have. Yeah. And I think that's also where the s- you know, the scooters come in. You think, "No, no, we're a bike company. We're a bike company- Right ... first and foremost, and we've gotta stick with that." And I think that's also really important, you know, when the political dialogue changes or cultural trends change, but you can't be everything to everybody.

[00:44:18] You need to stick with sort of your founding principles, and I think the moped, yeah. So you're gonna stick with bikes. Stick with bikes. Mm. Makes you stay, you know, no matter what the, you know, political rhetoric is, you know, we're a zero emission- What, what, what do you, what are you thinking about and when you, when you mention political rhetoric, what, what are, what's- Well, I think the sustain- there's been a bit of a row back from sort of sustainability, particularly- Do you think?

[00:44:38] across the pond, you know, sustainable- Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Your zero emissions message. Yeah, and I think perhaps that is, like, been a- But you're gonna hold onto that. Yeah, and I think that's maybe been diluted a bit. But there's a big audience that cares about that. Yeah, and we care about that, and I think- You know, you don't wanna be governed by political cycles or anything like that.

[00:44:55] No. You, you need to s- They come and go a bit, don't they? They come and go, yeah, and, and [00:45:00] rather quickly- Yeah, that's true ... over the last decade. But, um- That's, that, that's very true. So- So being true to what you believe in- T- yeah ... is your sort of- True to your founding principles. Yeah. And also as pictures have found, you get a lot of, you know, unsolicited advice and- Yeah

[00:45:13] and so sticking to what you know and why you set up the business- You get a lot of unsolicited advice. Right. Do you? Yeah. What, uh, people say, "Why don't you do this?" Or what, yeah. Particularly when it's bike share, you know? Yeah. But how do you evaluate that? 'Cause it, you, they might be good ideas that someone's- No, and of course, but- You've gotta curate that, I suppose.

[00:45:29] Definitely, and you have to- Yeah ... take a bit from all of it, of course. Yes. But I think if someone says, you know, "Do this or, or do that," or you know, "Why are you not doing that?" You need to just, you know, bring it back to that core matrix of, you know, what is it that we're- What are we about here? What are we about here, and, and does this feed into, into that?

[00:45:46] Is it helpful to our mission or not? Yeah, exactly. That's how you think about those suggestions. Exactly. It's like that, that purpose. That's a good way of doing it. 'Cause you want to be open to ideas and, and have a curious- Yeah ... approach, but you don't necessarily wanna try everything that's [00:46:00] suggested.

[00:46:00] Yeah, and you have to be- Yeah ... sort of, you know, steadfast in that, 'cause otherwise, you know, when the going does get tough, you think, "Oh, maybe I should da-da," you know. Yeah, yeah. But- So what, what, what advice would you give to entrepreneurs trying to build businesses that genuinely changed consumer behavior, because yours is doing that.

[00:46:17] Yeah. You know, when I go and get my Forest 24-hour ticket, you're changing my behavior 'cause I'll be riding a bike, not a Vespa. What, what advice would you give? Gosh, I mean, just keep going, honestly. Well, it can be a hard slog. Keep pushing, keep pushing. Like, I mean, yeah, 'cause v- uh, changing behavior is not a trivial thing, is it?

[00:46:36] No, no, it's not. And I- Well, you're not selling ice cream to people who know they like ice cream necessarily. Yeah, no, you just have to keep pushing, and, you know, have faith in what, in what you're doing. But just don't give up. Where, but where does that faith come from? Well, I, particularly with, we can see now- Yeah

[00:46:56] in, in London, the uptake of bikes. Yeah. We know, [00:47:00] we know we need, you know, we have an issue with air pollution- Yeah ... and cleaning the air. We know, um, the health benefits from active travel. We know the mental health, you know, mental health as well. So I think in the face ... And we also have a lot of support. I mean, we've got support from local authorities.

[00:47:17] We've got support from national government. This is all part of the mayor's, you know, tra- local transport plan. So there's, you know, you don't wanna have blind faith, but we know that there's so many factors pushing. It's the, you know, the urbanization. There's- Yeah ... a change in transport. There's a lot of tailwinds.

[00:47:35] So you can't, don't need a, like, a, a bump in the road, of which of course there are gonna be some- Yes ... you know, knock you off your perch 'cause Knock you off your bike. Yeah. Bumps in the road. We don't like them, do we? Yeah, but they- So ... they're gonna happen, you know? Yeah. And that's so r- like- Yeah ... it always happens.

[00:47:51] But having that, you know, that faith which is based on, you know, tailwinds and fundamentals and, and also just data. But you must have had that when you [00:48:00] started out. I mean, you must have sensed that change coming. Yeah. I mean, you had a vision that this is where we were headed. Yeah, there was, yeah. And it's turned out to be effectively true.

[00:48:09] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, 'cause you could- So you were looking forward. Yeah, and you could look to other European capitals to see- You know, the, the, the rise of, of not just bikes, but, you know, bike share as well, and that- So someone thinking, "I'd quite like to start a business," can do the same now, can't they?

[00:48:23] Yeah, have a look. Look around, what's happening elsewhere, what might come here. D- exactly. Have a look around, see, you know, what are the trends or, you know- And that's what you did ... where's a gap in the market, where's, where's a need that's going unserviced and, you know, bike share was definitely one of those.

[00:48:37] W- well, bike share was emerging, but we felt like what was on offer was fairly commoditized, so offering something a little bit different, um- 'Cause you're, you're not from London, are you? No, I'm not, not originally. You're from New Zealand, I think you said. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you came here and you saw this opportunity.

[00:48:53] It was Augustine... So I was, I was from a policy, you know- Yeah ... um, communications background. [00:49:00] Right. Uh, and it was Augustine, the CEO I mentioned, with his Cabify background. He came to- Well, he came from another country as well He came fr- yeah, he came from another country. So I'd been in London- Where had he been?

[00:49:10] He had been in South America- Right ... in, in Chile and in, in Madrid with- Yeah ... with Cabify, and he came to London to study a master's in data science. Right. And he suddenly thought, "Oh, my gosh, this is a huge opportunity in bike share, like I have to stay." Well, this is inspiring because so often people think, "Oh, there's an opportunity.

[00:49:26] Well, why don't we do this?" And then they don't actually do it, but you actually did it. Yeah. So go somewhere and think, "Why don't they do this here?" Yeah. You actually did it. I mean, that's fantastic. Yeah. It's taken, um... I mean, Augustine, the CEO, is- Oh ... the e- the epitome of a, of an entrepreneur, um, in my, in my view.

[00:49:46] Um, and we work well as a, as a t- you know, as a team. He's, he's- Yeah ... a complete visionary. He doesn't let things get him down. He pushes, pushes, pushes, and he sees the best in, in all [00:50:00] situations, you know, whether that's a learning- Mm-hmm ... "Okay, well, we'll do this," or, you know, something happens for a reason.

[00:50:04] Yeah, when it's go- when it goes wrong, it's a learning. It's a learning. It's always a learning. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I've, so I've actually learned- That's how you got- ... a lot from him too, to be like- Yeah, that's a good learning ... "You know what? We can learn from this." Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

[00:50:15] So, so how do you hope to take it forward from here? Well, we would love to see the regulation come in, and obviously Forest be successful, um, in that, you know, London-wide procurement process, and to really continue to create, you know, a business that is liked by users and non- non-users, and that we can sort of more s- you know, seamlessly integrate into the transport mix, and continue to see a rise in, in not just bike share, but, but biking more generally.

[00:50:43] Well, I wish you every and continued success with that, Caroline. Thank you so much, James. Thank you very much coming in to talk to me. I learned so much about, um, micro mobility, a word I didn't even know- ... before this conversation. A really new word, yeah. Talking to you today, so thank you very much. Uh, I found that fascinating.

[00:50:59] [00:51:00] I always finish with two questions. Okay. Um, you've sort of alluded to one of them because, um, the first is what gets you up on a Monday morning? Because here at Reid, we love Mondays. So what, Caroline, gets you up on a Monday morning? Well, we, yeah, as I said, we call it happy Mondays. See, I love getting into work.

[00:51:17] I love riding to work, that feeling. I've got three children, so- Right ... that feeling of walking out that door with your bag and your laptop Yeah ... and that ride of, you know, moving from that, like, home life to work life, um, is quite, is cathartic and exciting. You know, I ride across along the Thames, and I think, like, "What is this week gonna hold?"

[00:51:36] Yes. I think in a startup life, one week is kind of equivalent to a month. Yeah. One day equivalent to a week. So I, I mean, I'm excited by the prospect of what's gonna, what the day holds really. Yeah. And the days are super varied, so I mean- I like that. A startup life has a different pace. Different cadence.

[00:51:54] Yeah. Yeah. It does. And, and also you come to work for the team and the ideas and... Yeah, [00:52:00] no, I, I love coming to work. It's honestly just- No, I believe you. Yeah. I can see that in your face. A- and then the, the last question, and it's from my interview book, YU, is where do you see yourself in five years' time?

[00:52:13] Yeah, maybe chatting with chatting with you about- We'll come and find it ... post-pan London Tinder. Okay. Yeah. We'll have to very much have that come- No, no, still in London ... to pass Like absolutely still in London and, and hopefully- I hope to be still in London as well. Yeah. And, and hopefully, you know, more bikes, more boroughs, and a parking bay on every street.

[00:52:31] I love the sound of that. Well, I wish you every success. Thanks, Dave. Thanks very much for coming in, Caroline. Yeah, thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Excellent. Great, yeah.

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When should you hire, raise or expand? The lessons from Forest Bikes | Caroline Seton

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